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hoik

Life/Death Calculator = intrinsic value/culture

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THE OP (WITH SOME EDITS)

The overall concept was developed to make each players life in DayZ have a clear value.

This idea lays on the proviso that there is a HIGHLY DYNAMIC LOOT DROPING SYSTEM (as well as many others :P)

The system will work by giving players the ability to directly infuence both the quality and quantity of loot in game simply by the actions that they take - and by influencing resources it can also affect both the difficulty of the game and the cultural behavior of the players.

So here is the proposition:

*Each server keeps a log of the no. of deaths (by PvP) that occur. It also logs the total number of players. Dividing No. of Deaths against players gets an average player death count.

(This indicates co-operative behaviour)

*Each server also logs players average lifespan.

(This indicates survivalist behaviour)

*These two data sets can then be assigned to a value on a scale that will determin loot density and value (which, of course, is the difficult part)

(edit) I will clarify what I mean by 'loot value'. In this idea I divide all items into two groups - Essentails and Exotics.

Beans, matches, civilian grade weapons, etc = Essentials

Nvgs, GPS, miltary grade weapons, etc = Exotics

I know that items value are subjective (objective??) to the situation, but for this idea to work there will have to be a definate 'artificial' distinction.

Here is an example:

Lowest End of Scale - (Very High Death Count/Low Average Lifespan)

- Loot Density = 100%

- Exotic Loot Chance = 2%

Highest End of Scale - (Very Low Death Count/High Average Lifespan)

- Loot Density = 2%

- Exoticy Loot Chance = 100%

And everything inbetween...and it is this "inbetween" where all the intrest lies. The dynamic scenarios that would naturaly occur are very exciting as well as being very logical.

(edit) A possible issue is that of players skipping from server to server in hope of exploiting servers with better chances of Exotic loot: But this assumes that determining the current state of server wil be easy - it wont! There will be no visual indicator (on the hud) to allow a quick analysis of the game world. So... players will have to search and explore (and by extention interact with the game world) for some time before a judgement could be made on the state of a server - and heres the good bit - simply by do this they will actually be helping to shape the state of any given server!! Therefore even those that try to 'skirt' the system are inevitably drawn into it.

THE 'CYCLE'

(edit) This part is just where I can theoretically see this type of 'global causality' system going, like I said before, it does rely on a lot of other additional content to flesh it out - as it is mearly the basis on which a dynamic DayZ could be built.

At the low end of the scale - with plentiful food supplys and low level weapons - there will be a tendancey for chaos and violence. But as groups organise, setup basecamps, restore vehicles and develop culturally acceptable behaviour, naturally the average lifespan will rise and the death count will go down. But this in turn will lower the amount of available resources while better arming the community. If the community continues to work in pure co-operation, their technology advances whilest resourse deminish further and further. The average death count plummets while the Life expectancy rises till it leeds to a tension point where resource become so limited the only way to survive will be to turn on eachother - the death count sky-rockets, life expectancy plumets - and it all begins again!

"This is key. The cyclic nature of this dynamic is very important..." - Malleovic

How it may effect culture and give value to life in DayZ

I hope it is obvious how this (could) influence decision making when it comes to killing other players. It will not discourage or penalise player decisions persay, but will make their decisions have a conciquence - a non-imediate one, one that is only negative or positive depending on your standpoint, with no moral concequence other than those imposed by your fellow survivours.

Prehaps outright murder will become some what of a social taboo (looked down on, but unstopable) because life is now directly linked to the quantity and quality of loot - to better your chances co-operate, or at the least rob someone rather than murder them.

I know that even this level of, "guidence" lets call it, is too much for some people. So i see this as an option that can be implemented on a server by server basis - with the severity of influnce a player has over the loot density/quality of items being fully adjustable by admins. Of course this will directly influence the "worth" of other players to eachother.

I'll stop here because i can go on and on, but will conclude by saying that in my mind the most important role a system like this could take is to act as a catalyst for cultural behaviour within the game.

"My only "fear" is that most of people, specially in an apocalyptic world, are selfish and don't give a damn about the long term." - Mikyjax

(edit) The 'selfish' outcomes of this idea are just as valid as the 'humane' ones - all I ask is for the players to be more aware of the impact of their actions, and their possible outcomes. Then give everyone tools to allow them to enforce direct concequences on individuals that act outside any groups 'norms'.

"The particulars are hidden from the player well enough, it could enhance without being a distraction." - Malleovic

Edited by Hoik
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I'll have to take a look at this when I'm home from work, but I like the fact you thought the idea through and even came up with some calculations, which is lacking from most of the suggestions.

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Why is this idea not getting more attention? It's the only suggestion I've seen that combats both:

the boring possibility of endless KoS and

doesn't give any ground to people who want the game to help them make decisions regarding trust and risk,

and it doesn't do any of this by resorting to permanent learning-curve-breaking reductions in loot drops. Bravo!

At the low end of the scale - with plentiful food supplys and low level weapons - there will be a tendancey for chaos and violence. But as groups organise' date=' setup basecamps, restore vehicles and develop culturally acceptable behaviour, naturally the average lifespan will rise and the death count will go down. But this in turn will lower the amount of available resources while better arming the community. If the community continues to work in pure co-operation, their technology advances whilest resourse deminish further and further. The average death count plummets while the Life expectancy rises till it leeds to a tension point where resource become so limited the only way to survive will be to turn on eachother - the death count sky-rockets, life expectancy plumets - and it all begins again![/quote']

This is key. The cyclic nature of this dynamic is very important and will be very hard to tweak, but the particulars arehidden from the player well enough, it could enhance without being a distraction (same reason I think the removal of the debug monitor in a future update will be a very good thing for overall experience in far-reaching ways).

This suggestion is a relative gem of subtlety in a mine full of lazy, contrived, ham-fisted lumps of coal that seek to reduce PvP at the price of making this mod more like other gaming experiences, and thus lose some of its essential soul.

My hat is off to you sir.

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I support this idea. I would also like to suggest that the chance for a loot pile to drop empty cans should increase the more that loot pile is looted, thus encouraging exploration and making the various farming techniques for military gear less productive.

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Very interresting, hope rocket will have a look to your thread.

My only "fear" is that most of people, specially in an apocalyptic world, are selfish and don't give a damn about the long term.

I see people going in servers where loot is abundant, it s like the "running from night server" aspect.

If people are linked to a server, that can be a key tough.

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My hat is off to you sir.

Wow *tear* total validation.

Seriously, it is so good to hear someone agree - Thank you.

Edited by Hoik

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I see people going in servers where loot is abundant' date=' it s like the "running from night server" aspect.

If people are linked to a server, that can be a key tough.

[/quote']

good point.

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I think this in an amazing idea that I would love to see implemented, however as pointed out by Mikyjax it would be needed to bind the players to a server, which anyway would come attached to the concept: survivors would feel encouraged to stay in a place where loot is high and thus community would build up slowly.

However, this brings up another issue with this mod: server inestability and population threshold. I, as a co-op survivor, would be severely pissed off if my camp was wiped during a sudden server restart or couldn't re-join my friends because the server is full.

Anyway, this is a well reasoned feature request, and I would LOVE to see this in DayZ.

Cheers op, and sorry for my English (not my first language).

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This idea is very good, but its timing with the instable netcode can get it forgotten. If servers would be more stable in both their coding and playerbase, this would be a great idea.

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I think your overlooking the fact that there are tonnes of players out there that treat murders as "points" and don't really care about the game or other people at all.

As it stands I don't think you would ever see your cycle come to fruition even once but Id like to be proved wrong ;)

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This is definitely an excellent and well thought out idea. Nail down the formula and its good to go. However, I do think some of the expansion ideas are pushing a little too far into MMORPG status. It's still a first person shooter, it doesn't really need to go that far. I think just adding this calculator to a server would be enough.

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I was just discussing this idea and it dawned on me that , if people are restricted by resources, all they need to do is server hop get what they want and come back.

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It's a great idea, the loot is a character in this story and at the moment resources are unlimited and available to all equally.

Whereas I'd guess that in a real situation groups would form that would control resources, availability wouldn't be fair and equal.

Does the loot spawning need to be tied to the player to stop server hopping though?

Also, say a group form and they control a large amount of resources in their camp, then go on killing sprees. When availability is sparse, does that hinder the solo survivor because they are alone and lacking in resources, or does that actually strengthen them because it gives them a united cause to band in numbers against those who have means?

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As confusing as the title of this thread is, it is a pretty good idea!

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Firstly, thanks alot for all your replys - I was at the point of dispare and frustration trying to convince people (on other threads) that hard and fast rules are not neccacary (infact I was at the point of defeat :dodgy: )

I think your overlooking the fact that there are tonnes of players out there that treat murders as "points" and don't really care about the game or other people at all.

I agree that there are alot of players who dont care about anything but killing, and in no way do I want to stop them playing. Im not overlooking this behaviour but trying to change it - and where thats not possible integrate it so that it is a valid part of the game.

I posted this elseware, this is basicly how I think of greifers/high kill bandits:

"Being a dick is actually the infant stage of a gamer (thats why I find "time out" suggestions so funny - it is a direct indication of what type of players grief), we need to encourage these people get beyond this and join the community at large, so they can enjoy a more mature appreciation of the many other possibilities this game has to offer aside from murder"

I find it more helpful to think of this play-style not as a user created problem, but as a core mechanic of the game (implemented by a sadistic genius) that can not be changed.

@ Strategos

" I was just discussing this idea and it dawned on me that , if people are restricted by resources, all they need to do is server hop get what they want and come back."

This is definatly a problem - it would be great to discuss this further :) . (I do like sabata's suggestion here hehe: http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=13622 )

But for me, the biggest issue (not just for this concept, but in general) is if you want the players to be able to police themselves (if they choose to) they need a way to be able to identify each player in the game (on sight) as INDIVDUALS just like we can recognise individual faces- this is vital so that everyone can be held accountable for thier actions.

There are two ways to go about this:

The hard way (prefreble but unlikely to happen) - make 50+ highly unique skins that can be randomly assigned to one individual at a time for their lifespan.

The easy way - on spawn every player is assigned a unique - randomly generated number. This simulates the subtle uniqeness that every human naturaly has (feature wise), and can be used in the same way to identify individuals.

I THINK this could work (can it?).

@ harrumphicus

"However, I do think some of the expansion ideas are pushing a little too far into MMORPG status. It's still a first person shooter, it doesn't really need to go that far. I think just adding this calculator to a server would be enough. "

The calculator is all that is required for the expaansion ideas to occur, as the choice on how "far" to take this system is up to the players - those that want a MMORPG will strive for it while those that prefer somthing simpler will pull in the oposite direction and this is what will actually make this system work! (that literally just occured to me).

Personally I want to push this game right through MMORPG into something that hasn't even GOT an acronym yet - this mod has so much potential I dont think we should restrict ourselves to pigeon-holes, esspecialy when all we are doing is theorising.

@ Cheekorobbins

"Also, say a group form and they control a large amount of resources in their camp, then go on killing sprees. When availability is sparse, does that hinder the solo survivor because they are alone and lacking in resources, or does that actually strengthen them because it gives them a united cause to band in numbers against those who have means?"

Very interesting to think about!

lastly I want to point you to this very cool idea by Swi1ch ( http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=3420 ) on dynamic zombi spawning, I think these two ideas combined would = my ideal verson of this mod :) .

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While I agree with any kind of system that can indirectly discourage murders or at least increase the thought required of the player about to commit one, this seems entirely avoidable.

If we modify the loot table for individual players based on their behavior, that breaks the "realism" that is pursued.

Not trying to shoot you down, just sounds like a lot of trouble to implement only to have it not effect the people it is intended to effect because they jump servers or get loot from player kills anyway.

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this game isn't about teamwork, though; it's about survival. If you feel you would survive better on your own, you shouldn't be punished for that.

Fixing exploits to maintain a seamless world is the best way to fix rampant murdering. If you can solve server hopping and gear/equipment exploits, you've fixed the majority of the issues and will have the mod as intended.

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While I agree with any kind of system that can indirectly discourage murders or at least increase the thought required of the player about to commit one' date=' this seems entirely avoidable.

If we modify the loot table for individual players based on their behavior, that breaks the "realism" that is pursued.

Not trying to shoot you down, just sounds like a lot of trouble to implement only to have it not effect the people it is intended to effect because they jump servers or get loot from player kills anyway.

[/quote']

How do water shortages occur? Why is the price of petrol sky rocketing along with the price of food? People effect the resources (eg loot) around them as a by product of living- the more people there are the higher demand and the less there is to go around and vica versa.

I would argue it would be against the "realism" of the game if it DIDN'T have a system that modified loot accordingly :D !

Also, having a player base that will commit to a server is a problem - but a completely solvable one (I think?). I am by nature a pesemist myself, but just imagine if it DID work!

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this game isn't about teamwork' date=' though; it's about survival. If you feel you would survive better on your own, you shouldn't be punished for that.

Fixing exploits to maintain a seamless world is the best way to fix rampant murdering. If you can solve server hopping and gear/equipment exploits, you've fixed the majority of the issues and will have the mod as intended.

[/quote']

Survial = teamwork = survival?? I dont think you can diferentiate between the two. Whats the use of surviving if everyone else is dead?

You wont be punished by being by yourself. Only greifers/ high kill-looters will be "punished" because they will be require to think about their actions (Ouuuuch! No stop it! stop it!) or if the other players choose to crack down on them - I am honestly tired of "lone wolves' complaining about being "punished'.

_________________

EDIT: Sorry, I am trying to curb my unconstructive comments - "Lone Wolves" should stop equating themselves to kill-loot bandits or greifers and should realise that the reason why there is so much discusion on ways to "punish" these players is because currently the perks are 100% in their favour. They run around all day punishing other players very harshly with no second thought then have the nerve to complain that others are trying to infringe on THEIR freedoms...

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i dont lke this idea tbh because if you have camping snipers whop kill everyone they will get all the loot

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Whaa?? - please have a good read and THINK about this before you answer. (thanks for the bump though :P )

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i did think about it and i felt the way i felt

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