Aircraft: Planes

[FlimFlamm 509]

In short: Planes

 

If you one day find yourself in a zombie apocalypse, would you rather get into a helicopter hobbled together from various parts by murderous survivors, or would you rather get into a plane hobbled together by murderous survivors?

 

Planes have their place in the original DayZ mod. The C130, the An-22 Cargo, and the Cessna were vehicles that could be found and with enough skill could be flown and used to great effect (the C130 included but in a more limited fashion).

 

The real world advantages which planes have over helicopters which could be applied to DayZ standalone are numerous. They require much less fuel to move much heavier loads, and can in general lift much more weight at one time than a helicopter. The way a plane mechanically operates is much more simple than a helicopter, making engineering and constructing them much easier. Helicopters are known for requiring constant technical maintenance and for having sensitive and complex electronics. Planes are simpler, cheaper, and easier to build than helicopters. If planes make their way into DayZ then constructing small aircraft planes ought to be much easier to do than constructing a helicopter of any size. Planes should be easier to maintain, and like helicopters should bring with them all kinds of options for modularization.

 

Helicopters are superior for short range transportation. They are more manuverable and can perform vertical landings. In the world of Dayz this means you can pick up and deliver teammates from more places and more quickly than planes. Planes also come with the detriment of being more difficult to fly (at least in the DayZ mod world). You need space to land and takeoff, during which you are quite vulnerable. These sorts of disadvantages are another reason why it should be easier to build or get your hands on a small plane than any helicopter in the world of DayZ.

 

Finally, and the thing which makes greater commitment to planes worthwhile, is armed planes.

 

As we all know, there will eventually be implemented big ass helicopters that you can paint black and have multiple armed men hang out the sides and shoot guns at you, or from some sort of mounted MG, so why not let the moderate DayZ plane enthusiast strap an MG or two to the nose of his plane? This opens the door for plane on plane dogfights (which I have done extensively in the DayZ Overpoch mod using a WW1 Camel plane) and it is much more fun than the same boring old helicopter vs helicopter fights.

 

Landing and take off are skills that initially many people would need to develop, and dogfighting tactics are themselves a very fun and interesting strategic game that players would also need to learn.

 

TL;DR The addition of more planes into DayZ, including armed ww1-ww2 style planes (perhaps modular airframes) is an addition that would bring in an entire new layer to the game of DayZ, which would open up and extend the strategic end game, which would be forced to include much more skills-driven, robust and exciting arial superiority.

Edited April 4, 2015 by FlimFlamm

[IkaikaKekai 1957]

It's more just a mater of time before they add fixed wing aircraft to Standalone.  Although I think aside from small craft I don't think they'ed really fit on the current map.  Yes the map has gotten bigger but even in the Mod the map got awfully small with a helicopter.  Never got behind the controls of the biplane but I would think planes would be very limited in their usefulness.  There are 3 dedicated airfields (a possible 4th if they're still adding Utes), and sure there's a lot of places where you could land even a c130 safely, but I can really only see airplanes being useful to groups, and even then their usefulness will be limited compared to say even a small unarmed helicopter, doing recon would require the pilot to do circles around the area.  Evac requires a suitable area to land, and I assume doing airdrops of any kind (personnel or supplies) would require parachutes to be looted.

 

That said I do see at least one plane being added to game, but I don't think we'll be seeing large military aircraft added to Vanilla standalone.

[gibonez 3633]

lol

 

Talk about overkill.

 

Fixed wing planes and helicopters are overkill for the size of the map and in reality do not fit with the survival theme of the game.

 

Perhaps if the map was 10x large sure and even then It would be immersion breaking.

[Mullraugh 1151]

Every day when I go to work, I walk into a Military Hangar that has a CF-18 Hornet sitting in it, along with numerous Snowbird planes. I take a deep breath and look at them, knowing literally nothing about them despite being a near-future technician for them. I can literally say that 98% of the DayZ community would have no idea how to fly a plane or helicopter, let alone fix them.

 

That's why the introduction of manuals and instruction books should be seriously considered by the developers of this game. This way, people could actually be able to figure out what part goes where, and how to do it without completely destroying the aircraft mid-flight.

 

Of course, it's still a game, and you can't please everyone. So have your way, developers!

[Jfiles 439]

lol

 

Talk about overkill.

 

Fixed wing planes and helicopters are overkill for the size of the map and in reality do not fit with the survival theme of the game.

 

Perhaps if the map was 10x large sure and even then It would be immersion breaking.

I see where you are coming from yes, but i'd have to disagree slightly, Over kill yes for the planes. But one heli a server like the old days I find OK. That type of thing just gives an endgame, and I find it rather fitting. But the whole thing needs reworking. Just getting into a plane/heli and knowing how to fly, well, unlikely. But again, needs reworking.

[gibonez 3633]

I see where you are coming from yes, but i'd have to disagree slightly, Over kill yes for the planes. But one heli a server like the old days I find OK. That type of thing just gives an endgame, and I find it rather fitting. But the whole thing needs reworking. Just getting into a plane/heli and knowing how to fly, well, unlikely. But again, needs reworking.

 

The heli was only a bi product of the mod being just Arma 2 + zombies and random loot.

 

Standalone is trying to be a survival game first thus is why these things I don't see fitting.

[rybec 339]

The heli was only a bi product of the mod being just Arma 2 + zombies and random loot.

 

Standalone is trying to be a survival game first thus is why these things I don't see fitting.

What's interesting is helicopters make you own the map.

 

Planes would make for fast travel when you actually manage to get one going you're so limited on where you can safely go with it.

[Wookieenoob 191]

What's interesting is helicopters make you own the map.

 

Planes would make for fast travel when you actually manage to get one going you're so limited on where you can safely go with it.

 

they should add PTRS and stingers at the same time as they release air vehicles, that'll make a difference. 

[IkaikaKekai 1957]

Wouldn't we more likely see SA-16 or 18s?

[OnionOfShame 138]

they should add PTRS and stingers at the same time as they release air vehicles, that'll make a difference.

Unless air vehicles are very common I doubt any squad would bother wasting space to bring a launcher along. So the only real use a Stinger would get would be if you were being attacked in a military base by an aircraft and just happened to find one. The PTRS could be good though, as it would be usable as a sniper rifle as well.

[FlimFlamm 509]

It's more just a mater of time before they add fixed wing aircraft to Standalone.  Although I think aside from small craft I don't think they'ed really fit on the current map.  Yes the map has gotten bigger but even in the Mod the map got awfully small with a helicopter.  Never got behind the controls of the biplane but I would think planes would be very limited in their usefulness.  There are 3 dedicated airfields (a possible 4th if they're still adding Utes), and sure there's a lot of places where you could land even a c130 safely, but I can really only see airplanes being useful to groups, and even then their usefulness will be limited compared to say even a small unarmed helicopter, doing recon would require the pilot to do circles around the area.  Evac requires a suitable area to land, and I assume doing airdrops of any kind (personnel or supplies) would require parachutes to be looted.

 

That said I do see at least one plane being added to game, but I don't think we'll be seeing large military aircraft added to Vanilla standalone.

 

Large military aircraft is something that I am not interested in seeing. Small single person 'fighter' planes would be the height of plane technology, and for helicopters, something like the Mi-17 would be the top of the line. No black hawks...

 

I want to see modular planes and helicopters such that seating, engines, instruments, armor, and weapons can be swapped around, upgraded, etc...

 

A decked out 'fighter' plane with the best armor and guns available should be able to stand a chance against an enemy helicopter with similar armor and one active gunner, if they come up against a helicopter with two gunners then would be more difficult.

 

The point is to avoid the stale ass helicopter vs helicopter battles that we have all played out hundreds of times on the mod and replace it with something new and exciting.

[FlimFlamm 509]

lol

 

Talk about overkill.

 

Fixed wing planes and helicopters are overkill for the size of the map and in reality do not fit with the survival theme of the game.

 

Perhaps if the map was 10x large sure and even then It would be immersion breaking.

 

Helicopters are end game things that you get when you have groups and bases. And you use them to wage war against enemy bases and to secure various missions and loot stuffs.

 

Having flown planes extensively on chernarus I can comfortably say that it is large enough for planes of decent sizes to take of and land everywhere, and there is more than enough airspace for everyone. If all 50 players on a server and their grandmothers were flying around then th ings might get crowded, but that will never happen. The map is like 10 square kilometers... More than ehough space.

[FlimFlamm 509]

I see where you are coming from yes, but i'd have to disagree slightly, Over kill yes for the planes. But one heli a server like the old days I find OK. That type of thing just gives an endgame, and I find it rather fitting. But the whole thing needs reworking. Just getting into a plane/heli and knowing how to fly, well, unlikely. But again, needs reworking.

 

It took me a long time of practice and research to get good at flying planes on simulators. Arma originally being a flight sim can cater very well to realistic flight mechanics, so why not take full advantage of that?

 

When there is only one helicopter on a map it gets horded by the single most powerful clan. When there are a few helicopters kicking around the map you might get your hands on one owing to sheer luck, but you will seldom be able to hang onto it for more than a day.

 

If you could build helicopters (and planes) through painstaking collection of parts and resources then groups of sufficient size would be able to field their own aircraft with effort and skill rather than dumb luck of the spawn.

 

Planes can get shot down out of the air you know... Especially if they are doing strafing attack runs on ground targets, which are extremely hard to actually negotiate and execute. As such planes would pose a main threat other aircraft rather than gound targets. If a radio system with an airfract channel weas implemented then fighter planes could fly around policing or extorting other aircraft, just like I used to do on the dayz mod.

 

I wasn't able to be highly effective with the armed Camel plane because it was over powered, in fact it was a flimsy ww1 plane that could not even keep up with a little bird. I was successful because of my knowledge of arial tactics and my dedication to refining my flight skills. I would go 2000 meters up, engine off,  and silently glide around in circles, listening and looking for enemy aircraft. (a ww2 tactic the luft waffe used) When I would find a target I would use my extreme height advantage to gain incredible (dangerous amounts) of speed and to get ontop of and overtake my targets.

 

DayZ is a survival game but it also a thrival game, and a combat simulator. Flying planes once you get comfortable with it is so much more fun and conducive to tactics, skill, and strategy that I simply cannot imagine not having one in the final version of DayZ.

[FlimFlamm 509]

The heli was only a bi product of the mod being just Arma 2 + zombies and random loot.

 

Standalone is trying to be a survival game first thus is why these things I don't see fitting.

Nobody wants to play forever as a lone survivor.

 

We want super indepth survival mechanics like injuries, bleeding, diseases, etc... But we don't want the end game to be barricading yourself into a building with a few friends and sitting around forever.

 

In order to be exciting the end game needs aircraft and warfare between well established clans/bases. And my point with this thread is that arial warfare can become incredibly enjoyable with a simple, singular armed plane.

 

But besides, what goes on in the skies between rich factions who own bases who knows where usually doesn't affect the lone survivor on the ground. You do all your survival shit as normal, and maybe once in awhile you look up or hear the laboring engine of a plane and wonder what it is like up there; the sky is a separate world from the ground.

 

The only time an armed plane will affect you on the ground is if you are in a base it is strafing, have shot at it and given away your location and displayed agression (in which case retialatory strafes are possible but difficult if there is any cover), or see one come in for a landing.

 

Anyone who played the mod the most exciting thing that can possibly happen is an aircraft lands near you and you have a gun. Stealing an aircraft is the literal height of DayZ accomplishments as a lone survivor.

[FlimFlamm 509]

What's interesting is helicopters make you own the map.

 

Planes would make for fast travel when you actually manage to get one going you're so limited on where you can safely go with it.

 

actually it's not that hard to land a plane if you know what you are doing. 95% of people have no idea what they are doing so don't trust them or your own experience.

 

You get as low as possible angled at your landing zone and then reduce to the minimum airspeed for your aircrfaft and put your flaps to full/open position (flaps create more drag but also give you more lift, which slows you down and allows you to not fall out of the sky at slower speeds). Once you touch down on the ground you cut the engine and that is usually it. (in arma 2 you usually want to nose down in order to actually brake, making you able to come to a halt in 20 meters or so).

 

There is also the strategic use of hills. If you land on a a hill facing upward then gravity will slow your plane for you. Simply turn around before you lose all your speed (to avoid getting stuck) and then when you take off you fly down the hill, and gravity brings you to take off speed much quicker than normal.

 

Every hill is a potential perch for a plane and a competent pilot.

Edited March 17, 2015 by FlimFlamm

[FlimFlamm 509]

they should add PTRS and stingers at the same time as they release air vehicles, that'll make a difference. 

Depending on calibre armaments they give to helis and planes, they would need to counter balance them with ground based mounted MG's for artillery.

 

It would be good if armed ground vehicles and armed aircraft could balance wise work in tandem in order to overcome opponents who have only air or only ground support. Example, when the ground artillery shoots at the aircraft, that gives away position and a chance for enemy ground troops to take out the artillery, and vice versa when an attacking force is taking fire on the ground from mounted MG's, a helicopter or a plane could do a flyby/ strafing run on the entrenched positions.

 

Stingers are not a good idea and it is unrealistic that survivors could ever get their hands on one.

Edited March 17, 2015 by FlimFlamm

[FlimFlamm 509]

Every day when I go to work, I walk into a Military Hangar that has a CF-18 Hornet sitting in it, along with numerous Snowbird planes. I take a deep breath and look at them, knowing literally nothing about them despite being a near-future technician for them. I can literally say that 98% of the DayZ community would have no idea how to fly a plane or helicopter, let alone fix them.

 

That's why the introduction of manuals and instruction books should be seriously considered by the developers of this game. This way, people could actually be able to figure out what part goes where, and how to do it without completely destroying the aircraft mid-flight.

 

Of course, it's still a game, and you can't please everyone. So have your way, developers!

 

I want to see specialization in DayZ. And I want to speacialize as a hunter/gatherer in my downtime and a combat/transport pilot in my uptime and when I am working in groups.

 

I want things to be difficult, cumbersome and complex. Manuals for construction maintenance and flight sound interesting, although the DayZ wiki would compete with them when it comes to actually being used.

 

When I played DayZ overpoch I was known for piloting planes, and I would always land in places that nobody else could or thought was possible (I actually built a bat cave out of cement and metal that I would fly into with 3 meters clearance horizontally and 2 meters clearance vertically at one point). Whenever someone would steal my plane (from stary or hero safe zones for example), it felt really good knowing that because they had no clue what they were doing, they always crashed and died on take off.

 

In this way because I specialized in planes I had a skill which was a real asset. I was able to build a real reputation as a hero who would force any aircraft I could find to identify themselves and agree to not agress upon other aircraft. If they failed to identify they would get warned and then attacked (usually shot down with much publicity). If any group was attacking bambis on the coast I would defend them, and so it was that i policied the skies and the coast on a reputation of being feared. All with the Camel plane...

 

There is a very high skill ceiling for planes where there is a very low one for helicopters. If the devs are trying to create an economy and community like environment then having specific fields which rewards dedication is how they ought to do it, and building, maintaining and flying planes is a very enjoyable and interesting field of study.

 

Farmers, hunters, supply runners, lone bandits, gang bangers, builders, drivers, fighters of various kinds, pilots, all these things are functions that different kinds of players naturally want to fill, and they can pose as an asset or a threat to the end game group base type operations that we are all one day expecting to experience. If more profession like fields are available then the game becomes more diverse and interesting, which is likely to attract more and more players, and in the end simply be more fun.

Edited March 17, 2015 by FlimFlamm

[FlimFlamm 509]

I just realized something that is totally relevant in the argument for planes.

 

If the weight system is fleshed out then different helicopters are going to have specific weight capacities. If aircraft are modular than the more lightly armed and armored it is the more it can lift.

 

Helicopters have a hard time with big loads but planes carry heavy loads like bosses.

 

Weight issues could affect the ascension rate of helicopters and also the minimum airspeed and therefore climbing rate of planes.

 

If a clan wants to transport a great deal of heavy and valuable loot across the map safely, a plane is the best way to do it.

Edited March 17, 2015 by FlimFlamm

[stielhandgranate 480]

The map is too small to do helis and fixed wing aircraft justice. Zipping from one corner to another in less than five minutes. Dayz Altis would be able to make helicopter justice.

[IkaikaKekai 1957]

I think you misread what DayZ is going to be.  It's not going to be Arma with Zombies sprinkled ontop.  We're not going to see jet aircraft or attack helicopters, we're not going to see Main Battle Tanks or Infantry Fighting Vehicles, we'd be lucky if we see armored cars with a LMG mounted on them..  Why would you even need a MIG in the zombie apocalypse?  So you can kill fellow survivors with total superiority and almost total immunity?  The resources required to get a fighter repaired (much less refueled) would outweigh any benefit to having it.  A single engine prop plane has more uses and would be easier to repair and maintain and be far more useful.

[FlimFlamm 509]

I think you misread what DayZ is going to be.  It's not going to be Arma with Zombies sprinkled ontop.  We're not going to see jet aircraft or attack helicopters, we're not going to see Main Battle Tanks or Infantry Fighting Vehicles, we'd be lucky if we see armored cars with a LMG mounted on them..  Why would you even need a MIG in the zombie apocalypse?  So you can kill fellow survivors with total superiority and almost total immunity?  The resources required to get a fighter repaired (much less refueled) would outweigh any benefit to having it.  A single engine prop plane has more uses and would be easier to repair and maintain and be far more useful.

 

A plane with an MG strapped to it is not a mig. A helicopter with a mounted MG is not a black hawk.

 

I'm not envisioning full militarized vehicles, I'm envisioning prop planes with guns strapped to them, and helicopters with people shooting out the doors potentially with MG's strapped to the sides.

 

I never said anything about jets.

 

 

The map is too small to do helis and fixed wing aircraft justice. Zipping from one corner to another in less than five minutes. Dayz Altis would be able to make helicopter justice.

 

It's not too big for small aircraft. And it is too big for ground only transport...

 

Nobody is saying getting aircraft should be cheap or easy, but surely it should be available..

Edited March 18, 2015 by FlimFlamm

[IkaikaKekai 1957]

A plane with an MG strapped to it is not a mig. A helicopter with a mounted MG is not a black hawk.

 

I'm not envisioning full militarized vehicles, I'm envisioning prop planes with guns strapped to them, and helicopters with people shooting out the doors potentially with MG's strapped to the sides.

 

I never said anything about jets.

 

 

 

It's not too big for small aircraft. And it is too big for ground only transport...

 

Nobody is saying getting aircraft should be cheap or easy, but surely it should be available..

You were talking about heavily armed and armored aircraft taking on equally armed and armored helicopters.  What else is one suppose to think?  Also 'making' a fighter aircraft out of a Cessna and a GPMG or HMG would be rather foolish.  You can't mount it on the fuselage because of the propeller (WW1 fighters had interrupters to prevent them from shooting out their own props, good luck trying to make one from scratch) the wings would really be the only good place to mount it, but now you have to mount something that's not aerodynamic onto a wing, and counterbalance it weight wise on the other wing, and you need some (reliable) way to FIRE the thing.  A work around would be to mount it like a door gun, but that won't make it a fighter of any sort, it's an attack craft.  And again, good luck landing and hiding that thing you just spent a shit load of time getting to work.  There's been many times in the mod I've landed a heli (in what I thought was a good location) and logged out, only to come back and find a dead player, a destroyed shell of a helicopter, and a crater just 50 feet from my camp.  Hours to days of hard work ruined in seconds.

Again, we will see aircraft in this game, but I don't see them going above small single engine props (possibly a twin engine Civilian cargo/passenger plane), helicopters might be the execption, but I doubt we'll see anything heaiver than an unarmed Mi8/Mi17.  Something along the lines of a Bell 47 (Russian/Soviet equivalent of course) or say a coast guard SAR heli would be the more common find.

[FlimFlamm 509]

You were talking about heavily armed and armored aircraft taking on equally armed and armored helicopters.  What else is one suppose to think?  Also 'making' a fighter aircraft out of a Cessna and a GPMG or HMG would be rather foolish.  You can't mount it on the fuselage because of the propeller (WW1 fighters had interrupters to prevent them from shooting out their own props, good luck trying to make one from scratch) the wings would really be the only good place to mount it, but now you have to mount something that's not aerodynamic onto a wing, and counterbalance it weight wise on the other wing, and you need some (reliable) way to FIRE the thing.  A work around would be to mount it like a door gun, but that won't make it a fighter of any sort, it's an attack craft.  And again, good luck landing and hiding that thing you just spent a shit load of time getting to work.  There's been many times in the mod I've landed a heli (in what I thought was a good location) and logged out, only to come back and find a dead player, a destroyed shell of a helicopter, and a crater just 50 feet from my camp.  Hours to days of hard work ruined in seconds.

Again, we will see aircraft in this game, but I don't see them going above small single engine props (possibly a twin engine Civilian cargo/passenger plane), helicopters might be the execption, but I doubt we'll see anything heaiver than an unarmed Mi8/Mi17.  Something along the lines of a Bell 47 (Russian/Soviet equivalent of course) or say a coast guard SAR heli would be the more common find.

 

If aircraft are modular then a synchronizer for mounted guns to shoot through the prop isn't far fetched at all. It's a very straightforward mechanism.

 

A Cessna is not quite maneuverable enough for dog fighting, but small bi planes and other small fixed wing prop planes can be very maneuverable with a good engine.]

 

Finding a random spawned cessna might be something useful, but I would much rather have the ability to construct my own planes from the ground up (obviously it would not be simple). What I meant by arms and armor on modular aircraft is about how heavy you make the fuselage and how high caliber you make the mounted gun.

[FlimFlamm 509]

It's really not unplausible that a WW1 style plane plane could be built by survivors. Simple bi-planes can use painted canvas if need be...

 

I'm not suggesting that bf109's and spitfires become available, nor am i suggesting jets, military attack helis, or the like. WW1 planes are dinky little things that fly slow and take damage easily. They would be fun to fly, not overly overpowered, and are reasonable projects for survivors.

 

As for the complexity fo an interruptor, they are incredibly simple. As seen here:

 

[Whyherro123 2283]

 

 

It's not too big for small aircraft. And it is too big for ground only transport...

 

Nobody is saying getting aircraft should be cheap or easy, but surely it should be available..

If anything, it is too SMALL for small aircraft. The map is ony about 20 kilometers from corner to corner.