Would you support a desicion to replace the Infusion engine?

[Damnyourdeadman 1045]

Let's pretend the dev. team makes an announcement to replace the Infusion engine with a more modern one.

 

- On the one hand,restriction such as dynamic lighting,rivers,underground areas,procedural weather/seasons/diving,etc would be made possible.

Also the improved multi threading and the multi-core support would benefit server fps and general performance greatly.

The clunkiness would be history and the game would feel smooth.

 

- On the other hand all the assets that were implemented until now,would have to be scrapped,or reconfigured to be reimplemented in the new engine.

That could mean a large portion of made work,would go to waste and the development time would need to extend greatly.

 

What would your thoughts be?

 

-Would you be supportive of their decision and accept the extended development time penalty and invest in a modern engine?

 

-Or you feel like the Infusion engine would make a great engine once all of it's custom modules are in place?

[Hicks_206 (DayZ) 4297]

I'm unsure how you can create an engine "more modern" than one being created -right now-.

 

Your assumption is based upon an incomplete understanding of what is being done, ala the creation of a new engine from a bare bones framework of the previous technology - which is what is done when engines are iterated upon. eg: Unreal, Cryengine, iDTech, and so on.

Also "Enfusion"

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

First off the OP seems to have little faith in Bohemia and this Enfusion Engine simply because of the history of the devs. If you look at the history, it shows clear bias towards AMD. DICE supports AMD to the very end, the crappiest $70 AMD quad core CPU runs battlefield 3 and 4 on 64 player player servers just beautiful. Yet in all Arma games including Arma 3 it is lackluster. You can often have a massive 40% performance boost by just using an intel CPU

 

Battlefield on 64 player servers is one of the most intense games in the world this has been discussed to death on major forums already, a dual core would choke to run it in 64 player maps. Battlefield is one of the games that happens to take huge advantage of 4 cores.

 

Many other games including Arma 3 does not, Arma 3 will actually run better on 2 faster cores. In battlefield 3 and 4 this is not the case.

 

Thats is why I would support the OP In this regard, IF the new Engine does not live up to the claims in the end. I DO NOT want another repeat of Arma 3 and 2 with this DayZ SA.

 

I bought DayZ SA for the full $30 back then because I want to show my support to the Devs I hoped that the addition of my support would allow for extra efforts put into AMD CPUs

Nice 1st post.  Multi-accounting is not cool and you're new ban will be coming up.  And sorry, did you just compare BF 3 and 4 to DayZ??  I'm at a loss for words here as you obviously have no clue how to properly compare the games when it come to performance vs what the engine is designed for.  BF is an arcade game with simple things going on.  It is designed for simple people so they don't have to use any brain function in order to play.  DayZ and Arma are in a league of their own when it come to gaming and their engine.  It's been designed to do very specifics things and can create maps 100 times the size anything frostbite could create.  That's why you don't play any Bohemia games on a lack luster computer.

[Damnyourdeadman 1045]

But can you call Enfusion a modern engine?

I mean,the majority content is combined assets of the older VBS and TOH engines from Arma2+3.

As i understand it,instead of starting from a newborn child to adulthood,you take parts of corpses (bits and parts from other modules or older engines) and combine them together to make Frankenstein (Enfusion).Truth be told,i have little knowledge of game development,but wouldn't be healthier to start fresh from a standalone source (Cryengine,Unreal,etc) rather than chopping bits and make everything work together in fear something else breaks?

Also,are you confident that the final form of the Enfusion would eventually overcome the current restrictions placed in the game?

[Death By Crowbar 1213]

But can you call Enfusion a modern engine?

What would you define a modern engine to be? What's an example designed for this type of open world FPS shooter?

[kichilron 8550]

If the new Engine fails to properly support AMD and use 4 cores to its fullest, I would support scrapping it and waiting another 2 or 3 years for DayZ so we can have proper graphics and performance.

 

11) Multiple Accounts:

Multiple accounts are not tolerated and may result in a ban for each instance.

[Damnyourdeadman 1045]

What would you define a modern engine to be? What's an example designed for this type of open world FPS shooter?

 

VBS 3,would be perfect imo!

If we had DayZ running on this platform,i would die a happy man! :)

 

 

 

 

 

Edit:sorry for the uncostructive reply.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Damnyourdeadman

[scriptfactory 620]

What would you define a modern engine to be? What's an example designed for this type of open world FPS shooter?

 

Virtually any game engine currently in use by AAA developers would be able to support this game as long as modifications were made to allow large maps and 1-2km render distances. Frostbite 3 would be particularly well suited.

[CJFlint 357]

It has seems hicks has already confirmed it. I am also in support of what they are doing. I would love to see more advanced mechanics, and DayZ SA set it self apart from ARMA and DayZ MOD....Not that theres anything wrong those its just dated now.

Edited January 6, 2015 by CJFlint

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

I think DayZ has massive longevity and we may see iterations/new versions of this game on snazzier future engines.

 

The more we support and play DayZ as it comes up, the longer it lives, progresses, and improves.

 

Not to fly too far off topic, I would really like to see new equally large or larger maps added when the game is done.

 

Dean mentioned a DayZ style map for all cultures was of interest to him.

 

Western, Asian, African style DayZ's right?

 

I would LOVE for maps to be built for where the debug plains start. Approach the area for a prompt to change servers and load the neighboring country or stay in Chernarus.

 

Maybe future game engines would make this more feasible....

Edited January 6, 2015 by BioHaze

[Gobbokirk 546]

How do you replace something that isn't already completed and 100% in the game?

Asking for Enfusion FAQ would make more sense.

[robot 34]

I have a 1.8 Renault Scenic engine going for thirty quid. Its only done 89k.

 

If anyone wants it, its in my front garden ready to collect, sold as seen.

[PhillyT 554]

Nice 1st post.  Multi-accounting is not cool and you're new ban will be coming up.  And sorry, did you just compare BF 3 and 4 to DayZ??  I'm at a loss for words here as you obviously have no clue how to properly compare the games when it come to performance vs what the engine is designed for.  BF is an arcade game with simple things going on.  It is designed for simple people so they don't have to use any brain function in order to play.  DayZ and Arma are in a league of their own when it come to gaming and their engine.  It's been designed to do very specifics things and can create maps 100 times the size anything frostbite could create.  That's why you don't play any Bohemia games on a lack luster computer.

 

Super classy there Caboose.

[OrLoK 16182]

Hello there

 

Also dont  forget the Toothpaste Factory Analogy.

 

The company has been making toothpaste for years. All the internal machinery, storage and distribution has been set up with toothpaste in mind.

 

Toothpaste and toothpaste derivatives is what they have dealt in for the past 25 years.

 

They even have their own deep vein paste mine out the back which several sub companies also use for their own particular brands.

 

Now you want them to make mouthwash?

 

Yes, its similar. But the fundamentals  are very different.

 

Same with "just" using another engine.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[Damnyourdeadman 1045]

It has seems hicks has already confirmed it. I am also in support of what they are doing. I would love to see more advanced mechanics, and DayZ SA set it self apart from ARMA and DayZ MOD....Not that theres anything wrong those its just dated now.

 

I just don't understand...

They struggle with adding mechanics that would be relatively easy to implement on an engine like VBS3.

 

I mean by default VBS3 offers

-advanced graphics

-physically based layered fog

-improved ambient life

-procedural foliage generation

-advanced water simulation (rivers)

-procedural weather (with snow)

-physics based destructible buildings

-biotopes that allow procedural creation of trees,bushes,rocks and other objects

-underground locations

 

Why struggle making Enfusion do all that when the technology is already out there?

[scriptfactory 620]

I just don't understand...

They struggle with adding mechanics that would be relatively easy to implement on an engine like VBS3.

 

I mean by default VBS3 offers

-advanced graphics

-physically based layered fog

-improved ambient life

-procedural foliage generation

-advanced water simulation (rivers)

-procedural weather (with snow)

-physics based destructible buildings

-biotopes that allow procedural creation of trees,bushes,rocks and other objects

-underground locations

 

Why struggle making Enfusion do all that when the technology is already out there?

 

Hackers.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

Super classy there Caboose.

Hmmmm, not sure what you're getting at here?

[gannon46 788]

I think DayZ has massive longevity and we may see iterations/new versions of this game on snazzier future engines.

 

The more we support and play DayZ as it comes up, the longer it lives, progresses, and improves.

 

Not to fly too far off topic, I would really like to see new equally large or larger maps added when the game is done.

 

Dean mentioned a DayZ style map for all cultures was of interest to him.

 

Western, Asian, African style DayZ's right?

 

I would LOVE for maps to be built for where the debug plains start. Approach the area for a prompt to change servers and load the neighboring country or stay in Chernarus.

 

Maybe future game engines would make this more feasible....

i too would love to see maps made for every region of the world. it would make it feel like the virus has destoyued the world and we could choose which country or region we think we could survive in and we could find an area that we live and hence get more immersion and also the game would never ever get boring. it would be cool if we could have some kind of transition such as get  a helicoter or plane working and fly to those other maps etc sry for the de-rail your idea was to good not to comment on.

[ChainReactor 922]

Why struggle making Enfusion do all that when the technology is already out there?

 

Because DayZ get's developed by Bohemia Interactive. They have their own engine. So the devs use this as a basis and a framework to create Enfusion upon.

 

I dont know if you got Hicks post right. Enfusion is not done, it's in progress. What they did with the RV2 Engine from ArmA is to strip it down to it's bare bones, threw in a chunk of placeholder systems and now replace those placeholders bit by bit with modules written from scratch and designed only with DayZ in mind. No matter what they add to the engine, they do it only with the set of features and gameplay mechanics in mind they want to have in their game.

 

I think theres nothing better for the game than this.

 

Patience, we still got a long way to go.

[OrLoK 16182]

I just don't understand...

They struggle with adding mechanics that would be relatively easy to implement on an engine like VBS3.

 

I mean by default VBS3 offers

-advanced graphics

-physically based layered fog

-improved ambient life

-procedural foliage generation

-advanced water simulation (rivers)

-procedural weather (with snow)

-physics based destructible buildings

-biotopes that allow procedural creation of trees,bushes,rocks and other objects

-underground locations

 

Why struggle making Enfusion do all that when the technology is already out there?

Hello there

 

Dont forget VBS is an entirely different beast to what DAYZ needs to be and is also a very different thing to Arma. Not to mention the difference in licences/teams etc. My copy of VBS 1 was held for months by UK Customs whilst they "investigated it".

 

I do understand OP's point and that many non knowledgeable folk might see "just switching" as an option. But the reality is far more complex.

 

If the benefits would be that good by "just switching" to Cryengine, fo example, do you not think they would have not already done that? A few more Lambos is always nice.

 

These guys are not daft. This is what they "do". Theyve been doing it, and doing it rather well for years.

 

Rgds

 

LoK 

[Damnyourdeadman 1045]

Because DayZ get's developed by Bohemia Interactive. They have their own engine. So the devs use this as a basis and a framework to create Enfusion upon.

 

I dont know if you got Hicks post right. Enfusion is not done, it's in progress. What they did with the RV2 Engine from ArmA is to strip it down to it's bare bones, threw in a chunk of placeholder systems and now replace those placeholders bit by bit with modules written from scratch and designed only with DayZ in mind. No matter what they add to the engine, they do it only with the set of features and gameplay mechanics in mind they want to have in their game.

 

I think theres nothing better for the game than this.

 

Patience, we still got a long way to go.

 

But there are already restrictions in the platform that start to show.

 

You want rivers? -Nope,engine can't allow it.

You want underground locations? -Nope,engine can't allow it.

You want dynamic weather change and snow? -Nope engine can't allow it.

You want dynamic lighting? -Nope engine can't allow it.

You want procedural biotops? -Nope,engine can't allow it.

 

On the other hand an engine like VSB3 offers these features from the get-go.

Spending resources and time on making things like that work in Enfusion could be avoided if they had simply moved to a more advanced engine.

 

 

Hello there

 

Dont forget VBS is an entirely different beast to what DAYZ needs to be and is also a very different thing to Arma. Not to mention the difference in licences/teams etc. My copy of VBS 1 was held for months by UK Customs whilst they "investigated it".

 

I do understand OP's point and that many non knowledgeable folk might see "just switching" as an option. But the reality is far more complex.

 

If the benefits would be that good by "just switching" to Cryengine, fo example, do you not think they would have not already done that? A few more Lambos is always nice.

 

These guys are not daft. This is what they "do". Theyve been doing it, and doing it rather well for years.

 

Rgds

 

LoK 

 

If i didn't trust in the devs,believe me i wouldn't spent over 1200 posts on the forums. :P

I trust them so much,that if tomorrow they announced "we are moving on another engine prepare for extended development cycle" i would still follow.

What i'm saying is that,should they be wasting time and resources on mechanics for Enfusion that were part of "VSB3"(or modern engine)from the get-go.

[ChainReactor 922]

On the other hand an engine like VSB3 offers these features from the get-go.

 

You seem to be pretty focused on VBS3. Keep in mind that engines don't come for free. If you decide to use a preexisting engine for a commercial product, you will have to pay quite some bucks for it. I dont have any numbers ready, but when a studio decides that is makes more sense economically when an entire team works over a year for a completely new engine instead of licensing a third party product, then I can imagine that it isnt that cheap.

 

Also, VBS is not really made for the consumer mass market, costs a load of money and actually gets sold to armies. I'm not quite sure if BIS would give away licenses at all. To be honest, i actually highly doubt it.

 

EDIT: Just found an example for a commercial use license for UDK ( Unreal Engine )

 

 

A team creates a game with UDK that they intend to sell. After six months of development, they release the game through digital distribution and they earn US$60,000 in the first calendar quarter after release. Their use of UDK during development requires no fee. At some point prior to the UDK Applications’srelease they would to secure a royalty-bearing commercial UDK license with its US$99 license fee. After earning US$60,000, they would be required to pay Epic US$2,500 (US$0 on the first US$50,000 in revenue, and US$2,500 on the next US$10,000 in revenue). On subsequent revenue, they are required to pay the 25% royalty.

Link

 

So, 99$ initial fee, first $50.000 of revenue for free, everything beyond that 25% of the total revenue. Put in DayZ's numbers and think again if it makes that much sense to license a third party engine when you have one from your own studio already.

Edited January 6, 2015 by ChainReactor

[BeefBacon 1185]

Game engines are iterative. Source, for example, still has code from the Quake engine which is where it has its roots. Quake and Half-Life 2 are very similar in the ways that they handle optimization and area occlusion and geometry, among a few other things. Think of the current state of the DayZ engine as being Goldsrc (Half-Life 1 engine). It's an improvement over Quake with its jelly animations, basic AI and simple lighting, but it can't process advanced physics or dynamic shadows. It's a work in progress.

 

But even then, swapping out a game engine isn't something you can just do. It'd be tantamount to starting development from scratch, only it'd be slower because it'd be with a (probably) unfamiliar game engine.

 

Game engines are pretty flexible things. Dynamic shadows aren't impossible, nor is flowing water or advanced fog effects. Hell, there are plans to implement dynamic shadows and flowing rivers already, and optimization hasn't even started yet. Seems wise to me to work on improving the current engine to turn it into something new, rather than gut the game and start again.  

[foolee 43]

I think the Enfusion engine will be better that you think. Hardware support for DX10/11 is big news IMO. They plan to do a PS4 launch, that means AMD optimization. Since both the PS4 & Xbox1 have AMD APU's. Everything points to better multithreading (8 cores), better graphics and supporting current gen hardware.

[Ellen Ripley 71]

@Damnyourdeadman

 

You have to accept that you are gravely underestimating the amount of work it takes to switch/change gameengines.

It is by no means a simple task.

 

If you want DayZ: SA to be in alpha for another 2-4 years then don't stop asking for a complete change.

 

However if you can accept the fact that they are working on the engine and remodeling it for their purpose then wait for Enfusion to go live.

And keep playing DayZ and whatever will follow afterwards. It takes time for changes and improvements...and maybe we will see a DayZ SA followup with an even better engine in 4 or 5 years.

 

btw. AFAIK VBS3 is a engine for military purpose with pretty high requirments. You can google those easily. It would need a lot of rework to be suitable for a DayZ experience.

Thus we would have to wait yet again a few years for it to be as playable as DayZ SA is now.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Ellen Ripley