Discussion: Barricading and Raiding

[Auklin 1]

I'll try to make this short and sweet.

 

Seeing as barricading is starting to make it's way into the game, should it be implemented a certain way?

In Rust, when you build a base, and you leave the server, your base stays. (That is all you need to know)

Problems:

- You can't defend your base when you are offline

   - People with lots of time will stay up till 5am, wait for you to go offline and raid you

   - Does not 'feel' fair, as if you were online, you would have been able to defend yourself.

   - Not realistic

- Requires an incredibly high time commitment to get anything done/make substantial progress.

 

In Dayz, I can imagine for the first little while (and I actually prefer this), barricading and 'base building' will be done by re-purposing old houses and buildings, rather than building your own.

 

If the game keeps going down the path Dean wants it to, you are going to have your farm/agriculture outside, possibly a gated area for animals, a dog, barbed wire around your property etc.

 

Then you stop playing for the night, come on next evening, and all of your stuff is gone because somebody had the time to take it all while you were offline, that definitely doesn't feel fair. Traps only go so far, because players with a lot of time can just keep dying and coming back, eventually, they will get what they want.

 

Possible ways to fix this:

- An absolute way to fix this would be for the server to declare your property (you have x amount of persistent containers and barricades around a building, therefore, you are tied to this building). When you log off, after, maybe ~20 minutes, all the stuff logs off with you. People are told they cannot build/ place persistent objects around this building because it is claimed, and it just spawns regular items on the loot table.
   Sounds extreme, I know, but it is an absolute fix that ensures people who simply have lot's of time don't stomp on people who want to play semi-casually (couple hours each day or less).

- An AI that takes over your character and defends your building. 

 This would likely be difficult to implement, and difficult to implement properly. having the AI stay inside the house, take cover and be a challenge for other survivors would be difficult to code. Still the unfair factor, as you may feel you would have been able to defend your base better.

- Absolute barricading. You can assume what this means, the problem is that you would be immune to raiding even while you were online, unless barricaded items are only breakable when you are online. However, if people take over a military location, then the server just lost a high loot spawning location to some player that may never come online again.

- Any other ideas?

 

Good ideas? Bad Ideas? Should people just accept that they need to play this game 20 hours a day to maintain their progress? Should we accept it as the nature of the game? Or is it unfair/ bad design that should be addressed rather than accepted?

[d.walker43 196]

I agree, this will cause problems. Honestly, I think it boils down to try and hide your base as well as you can, or make it look intimidating so people wont go near it.

 

My only idea is maybe have some sort of notification system, if someone goes within say a half-mile of your base you get a message on steam or something, saying there is a player. you could choose to ignore this message, or get on to defend your base.

 

I don't know, this is almost like in minecraft when you come back and someone has completely trashed your house. Theres nothing you can really do about it.

[Weyland Yutani (DayZ) 1159]

 An AI that takes over your character and defends your building. 

 

This would likely be difficult to implement, and difficult to implement properly. having the AI stay inside the house, take cover and be a challenge for other survivors would be difficult to code. Still the unfair factor, as you may feel you would have been able to defend your base better.

 

Good ideas? Bad Ideas? Should people just accept that they need to play this game 20 hours a day to maintain their progress? Should we accept it as the nature of the game? Or is it unfair/ bad design that should be addressed rather than accepted?

All around bad idea's and I'll explain why I think this...

 

First of all this isn't a game, its a simulation. If your not there to protect you're assets, they become vulnerable as this is the nature of the simulation. This isn't Rust nor Minecraft which are ultimately designs for children.

 

The best of your idea's is the AI who is present in you're absence. It is not difficult to code actually, rather simple. Sarge AI from the mod could do exactly what you want and it was made by the community...free, for the community.

 

What makes this a poor idea is your AI is going to get killed and thus, you should be killed. So not only will you log out for the night; return to all of your shit gone, but also you'll be a fresh spawn which will piss you off that much more.

 

What your not understanding is you don't need to play 20 hours/day to protect your assets, just don't pick a house to barricade thats on the beaten path. Get creative. There are lonely shacks deep in the woods…I won't tell you where because I have my eye on a few. Maybe don't pick a house with all the fixings. Get a lonely house in a remote region for your high-value property. Then use another house nearby for horticulture. Maybe another house for non-essentials and etc.

 

Ultimately, don't put all of your eggs in one basket.

 

Lastly, this should be in the suggestions forum…some good stuff in there.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Weyland Yutani

[blackberrygoo 1416]

Hmmm well in my opinion the devs will never add an AI that guards your stuff after logging off . Also for the claiming idea it's ok for people not building on your area while you're logged off but I believe your overlooking how hard it's going to be toget into someone's base ...

There was once upon a time a long lost forgotten mod called dayz aftermath , it was as close to the standalone as any mod had gotten and it's base raiding mechanic was like this : the person who built the base (or barricaded an existing building) could build walls around it as well (wooden which can upgrade five times, the fourth upgrade you need to add a lock for extra protection , then metal walls with three upgrades , the last one with a lock) the raider would need a sledgehammer a pick axe, a toolbox (and if they wanted to try to take it down but risk breaking things behind it was to use a hand grenade which worked to destroy walls in this mod ) and the process took a while (30-45 mins for a fully upgraded locked gate, about ten or less for a first level gate) and there was always a random chance to snap your sledgehammer in this process also your toolbox would be rendered useless after every 3 or so failed attempts (slegdehammer breaking) .

So long story short it was NOT easy to break into someone's base in this mod , and I believe standalone will do it even better .. We will have traps, pet dogs (I believe) that might stay when we log off to protect things(doubtful though) , and not to mention the strong walls, locks or gates that they will add that we may be able to construct!

So for people who really only play a couple hours a week you'd still need to take the time to fortify your base once in a while and of course you will get broken into once in a while by a master lock picker :) but all in all I think it will work much better than rust . And besides chernarus is much bigger than the rust world I believe !

[blaskapelle 6]

These arent any real problems. The real problem about barricading is that I can log into ur base. I spot ur barricaded base or house. Then i change server, walk into the spot of ur base/house and then relog in the server before to be in ur base. I think this will never be solved.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Blaskapelle

[Auklin 1]

 

 

Ultimately, don't put all of your eggs in one basket.

 

 

 

I should clarify, only because I sensed a bit of judgement in that reply. 

That this is exactly how I operate in these types of games.

In Rust, I have multiple small hidden outposts around the map that I spread my gear across, If one get's found, not a problem.

In DayZ, I have multiple tents on multiple servers.

However, the point is partially lost. I'm glad you liked the AI concept, but that's all it is, a concept. I don't have a stone-set idea of how it would work nor how it would be implemented. And by 'hard to code' I mean it would be hard to code it in a way that people would be satisfied with it. You are right, finding out that your home has been raided and your AI didn't defend it well enough would suck, but it's better than being killed while you were asleep.

 

To your 'simulation' point, I agree. But in a simulation, waking up to find all of your stuff was taken without you having any involvement (not playing) would not add to a simulation experience unless it happened under your watch. The 'claimed loot concept' would add to that, because only while you were in the simulation, could things happen, so you would always be there to experience it.

The AI would detract from a simulation experience, but it would be better than nothing at all. Assuming the game will eventually take from Rust where we don't disappear when we log off.

 

 I believe your overlooking how hard it's going to be toget into someone's base ...

So long story short it was NOT easy to break into someone's base in this mod , and I believe standalone will do it even better .. We will have traps, pet dogs (I believe) that might stay when we log off to protect things(doubtful though) , and not to mention the strong walls, locks or gates that they will add that we may be able to construct!
 

 

The problem still being that those with enough time on their hands can make progress, but good points nonetheless. If you have the materials, you can better protect yourself and your gear. But having massive walls and fortresses does not seem to the direction Dean is trying to go, he seems to more-so be leaning towards a minimalist approach to survival, so I'm trying to discuss how these things would work without needing to rebuild a maximum security penitentiary, haha.

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

Just make the barricade objects invincible as long as their builder is offline, and then turn their damage system back on when the player comes back online. I think that would be fair. And you could make the offline invincibility condition limited to say a couple of days. Storage devices shouldn't have any such artificial offline protection. It should be up to the player to adequately protect his items with barricades.

In fairness to the raiders, you'd have to give some indication whether the structures are in invincible mode, so they don't waster their time trying to take down a barricade that's invincible - maybe a slightly different texture that objects switch to when they're invulnerable. As well, there would have to be some provision for structures remaining vulnerable after their builder has been killed. It wouldn't make sense if a player killed you in an effort to raid your base, then when you die, the base either leaves with you or becomes invincible. That would defeat the whole purpose of base raiding. As well, you'd want to devise some way to counteract people logging out to preserve their base from raiding.

I like the idea plot poles. Place one down, and nobody can build within a certain radius except you. This prevents people from walling you into your own structure while you're offline. Where the plot owner is killed, the plot pole disappears. That way raiders can kill you for your property, and if you're killed while off adventuring, you can still come back and re-claim your plot (provided nobody got to it first). You'd also want to make it so that the player has to log off within the plot zone in order for the plot to remain persistent. Log off outside the plot, and the plot disappears, and property become vulnerable.

Maybe you could add a second radius - like a "security zone" that warns you that another player is near your base, and that your plot pole will disappear (and your base will not become invincible) if you log off now, and which leave the damage system turned on if you do log off. Because making bases invulnerable when offline (either by making structures unbreakable or by taking them off the server) will be easily exploitable. Base under threat? Just log off <--- That needs to be prevented

I think I'm making it sound more complicated than it has to be.

-Plot pole put down.

-Player who placed plot is now the only one who can build on plot.

-Player logs off inside while inside plot and no other players are nearby, structures on plot become invulnerable.

-Player logs off inside plot while other players are nearby, plot ownership disappears, structures persist but remain vulnerable to damage.

-Player logs off outside of plot or dies, plot ownership disappears, structures persist but remain vulnerable to damage.

-Properties that have structures on them but no plot ownership active can be re-plotted by whichever player gets there first. Any existing structures within the new plot become subject to the above rules accordingly.

Now plot poles should be very easily craftable, since it's just a claim, not an actual building. The point wouldn't be to search around for the means to claim an area to start building on. And to stop people just dropping counless plots all over the map just to prevent others from building, you could limit the number of plot poles attributable to a single player.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Ham_Sandwich27

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

All around bad idea's and I'll explain why I think this...

 

First of all this isn't a game, its a simulation. If your not there to protect you're assets, they become vulnerable as this is the nature of the simulation.

How then is your disappearing completely from the universe for a day at a time realistc to this "simulation" (unless you expect people to literally have DayZ running in front of them 24/7, even when they're asleep IRL, which is completely unreasonable)? That's a very unrealstic factor, and as such, you need something to compensate for simulation's sake. There's nothing realistic about when you are offline. You can't call that "simulation". Not unless you expect people to be on DayZ 24/7, which is ridiculous.

If DayZ were "RL", you'd be inside your property during the time when DayZ (the video game) sees you offline, and would beocme aware that someone was trying to break in. That means that "IRL", your structrue would have some degree of protection (that being you) 24/7 unless you were off doing something elsewhere. Adding offline base protection is a means to simulate that protectoin for when we're offline, since we can't all be logged onto DayZ 24/7.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Ham_Sandwich27

[Weyland Yutani (DayZ) 1159]

However, the point is partially lost. I'm glad you liked the AI concept, but that's all it is, a concept. I don't have a stone-set idea of how it would work nor how it would be implemented. And by 'hard to code' I mean it would be hard to code it in a way that people would be satisfied with it. You are right, finding out that your home has been raided and your AI didn't defend it well enough would suck, but it's better than being killed while you were asleep.

 

To your 'simulation' point, I agree. But in a simulation, waking up to find all of your stuff was taken without you having any involvement (not playing) would not add to a simulation experience unless it happened under your watch. 

 

Still, old Ai code from 2012 could satisfy everyone. Go to opendayz.net and download Sarge Ai, Notepad C++, open the script and check out what it does. The Ai is very intricate and considering how old the model is, mind blowing improvements could easily be coded. I used that script on my mod server and those Ai maxed out are highly intelligent and nearly impossible to kill. The can set ambushes, call in reinforcements, regroup, etc. Those Ai are better than RL players. With the old model they could code your personal progression into the Ai with better ADS times, locating targets and etc.

 

Also, if your Ai was killed, you should be killed which is why I think its a bad idea. Log back in: everything is gone, even your e-soul. I hope you don't take offense to that. The fact that your having ideas is a cool thing, but I think your aim is off in scope.

[Weyland Yutani (DayZ) 1159]

How then is your disappearing completely from the universe for a day at a time realistc to this "simulation" (unless you expect people to literally have DayZ running in front of them 24/7, even when they're asleep IRL, which is completely unreasonable)? That's a very unrealstic factor, and as such, you need something to compensate for simulation's sake. There's nothing realistic about when you are offline. You can't call that "simulation".

If DayZ were "RL", you'd be inside your property during the time when DayZ (the video game) sees you offline, and would beocme aware that someone was trying to break in. That means that "IRL", your structrue would have some degree of protection (that being you) 24/7 unless you were off doing something elsewhere. Adding offline base protection is a means to simulate that protectoin for when we're offline, since we can't all be logged onto DayZ 24/7.

Realism vs authenticy. Do some basic DayZ research before getting involved into an in-depth conversation.

 

I can call it a simulation because Brain Hicks who basically runs DayZ calls it a simulation and BIS (Bohemia Interactive Simulations) are famous for making RL simulations. Its whats for dinner.

 

Your definition of simulation is erroneous. There are natural caveats to video simulations and if you can't see that and how obvious the concept is, I'm not going to sit here trying to convince you otherwise. I don't want to derail this thread into a pit of bickering. Just to entertain your reply for a second, maybe when your offline your sleeping. 

 

Have a nice day!

Edited October 19, 2014 by Weyland Yutani

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

Do some basic DayZ research

LOL.

 

I can call it a simulation because Brain Hicks who basically runs DayZ calls it a simulation and BIS (Bohemia Interactive Simulations) are famous for making RL simulations. Its whats for dinner.

And I'll ask again, how then does a player disappearing from the universe for a day at a time factor into this "simulation"?

 

Your definition of simulation is erroneous. There are natural caveats to video simulations and if you can't see that and how obvious the concept is, I'm not going to sit here trying to convince you otherwise. I don't want to derail this thread into a pit of bickering. Just to entertain your reply for a second, maybe when your offline your sleeping.

No, I'm afraid it's you who doesn't understand the definition of the word "simulation". In this context, it means an attempt to maximize reasim. So I'll ask a third time, what's realstic about a character disappearing from the universe for periods of time, then coming back into the universe? I'll give you a hint: Nothing. There's nothing realstic about a property being left vulnerable becuase it's owner hase ceased to exist, but will return into existence in a few hours or the next day. As such, some measure needs to be devised to compensate for this unrealistic degree of vunlerability. Realistically, your property wouldn't be unprotected for those hours because you'd be there to defend it. What is so difficult to grasp about this?

Edited October 19, 2014 by Ham_Sandwich27

[Weyland Yutani (DayZ) 1159]

Ham_Sandwhich, your the type of person who is never wrong and never learns from a discussion/debate and I could see this a mile away. I actually typed that in my original post but wanted to give you the benefit of doubt and deleted those thoughts from my post.

 

Your what teachers refer to as the 'unteachable' and I'm one of those people that believes in the concept.

 

If you want to become something more than a statistic, have yourself a read on those links below. Maybe there is still a nano-spec to me that believes that everyone is teachable.

 

Simulation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation

 

Authentic vs Realistic: http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/28/4155988/authenticity-vs-reality-designing-dayz

 

I won't be responding. If your ego feels the need to respond with more "LOL's" then be my guest and have the last word. You obviously need it. Reiterating, have a good day friend!

Edited October 19, 2014 by Weyland Yutani

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

Still refusing to address the basic point. Need I ask the same question a fourth time?

As for "egos", I LOLed at you because of your pompous comment that amounted to "I'm a uber elite DayZ guy, why don't you get a clue, noob" - while not actually addressing the point.

Now, address the question of realism and how it relates to characters disappearing from the world and coming back.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Ham_Sandwich27

[dirrly 70]

Now, address the question of realism and how it relates to characters disappearing from the world and coming back.

 

I think that's the point. You ask about realism but he wants to tell you that the game is not meant to be realistic, it's meant to be authentic. For me the difference authentic/realistic is hard to explain, because english is not my native language, but I can try. Realism is to copy the real life 1:1 but authentic it can be if it feels real, also if it's not a 1:1 copy of real life.

 

So your question about realism is kind of "wrong" in this context. ;-)

[archamedes 238]

These arent any real problems. The real problem about barricading is that I can log into ur base. I spot ur barricaded base or house. Then i change server, walk into the spot of ur base/house and then relog in the server before to be in ur base. I think this will never be solved.

Unless the game detects you are trying to ghost or spawn inside an occupied house and will automatically kick you back outside even if you left the game inside the house on a seperate server. Only way to make it fair really, that way you can ensure nobody is going to suddenly appear in the room next to you

 

 

 

No, I'm afraid it's you who doesn't understand the definition of the word "simulation". In this context, it means an attempt to maximize reasim. So I'll ask a third time, what's realstic about a character disappearing from the universe for periods of time, then coming back into the universe? I'll give you a hint: Nothing. There's nothing realstic about a property being left vulnerable becuase it's owner hase ceased to exist, but will return into existence in a few hours or the next day. As such, some measure needs to be devised to compensate for this unrealistic degree of vunlerability. Realistically, your property wouldn't be unprotected for those hours because you'd be there to defend it. What is so difficult to grasp about this?

Maybe when you spawn out its classed as going to sleep

Edited October 19, 2014 by archamedes

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

ok, then how is a person disappearing from the universe then reappearing the next day to find his base destroyed either realsitic or authentic? What "feels" real about disappearing from the picture and having any number of things happening to your base when there's nothing you can do about it becuase you're not in the universe at the time?

Authentic, realistic, simulation, you can split hairs about definitoins all you want, and it's moot because bases being vulnerbale when you're not logged in doesn't meet any of those definitions.

And before someone says "Oh, well it simulates you being away from you base", no, it doens't. You actually being away from your base in game simulates you being away from your base, and it comes with a return - whatever loot you found when you were out, or whatever other goals you achived on your expedition. Offline time doesn't come with any benefit, yet if your base was vulnerable with you offline, you'd still be taking all the risk.

People shouldn't be punished for being offline. Imagine the kind of game DayZ would be if you were. Imagine the kinds of losers who would prevail if that were the case.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Ham_Sandwich27

[BasedBlue3 (DayZ) 3]

I have to put my 2 cents to this topic.

 

OP, I don't like the idea of AI, but I like the idea of declaring your property, I also like the idea of your stuff in your base dissapearing when you log out.

 

Also I don't understand why people say "It's not realistic, there is no way this could be included" or "It's a simulator".

 

Well yes, it is a simulator, but it's also a game. A GAME. It can have realistic aspects, but it's not real life and you can't make it real life. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a little bit of realism just to make the gameplay better and more interesting.

 

And to people saying that this is a "simulator" and it would be unrealistic if your stuff from your base dissapeared as you log out, well you should realize that it happens every time you log out. When you log out your character and your stuff that you have on you dissapears from the map and you are in "other dimension" as some people said. But no one complains that this is unrealistic. Following some people's logic your character should stay in the game 24/7 even when you log out because "it's a simulator". 

 

 

So people should know the line between adding realism which is cool and some game mechanics that will improve the gameplay since it's a GAME. 

Edited October 19, 2014 by BasedBlue3

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

And to people saying that this is a "simulator" and it would be unrealistic if your stuff from your base dissapeared as you log out, well you should realize that it happens every time you log out. When you log out your character and your stuff that you have on you dissapears from the map

You're going to make the "but it's a simulator!" people's heads explode.

I have to disagree about the dispapearing items though. I think they should perist, but should be safe so long as you left the structure protecting them secure. Ther problem with disappearing loot bieng, it pretty much make base raiding pointless if all a player has to do is log out when he realizes someone's trying to raid his base.

 

Sometimes you have to sacrifice a little bit of realism just to make the gameplay better and more interesting.

Or worthwhile at all. There will be little point to going to the effort of base building if it's just going to be gone next time you log in.

Having said that, the Rust model is reasonable. You can put in the effort to upgrade your structures ot the maximum level of strenght, as which point it's almost pointless for other players to try to break in (something like two hours to break down a wall or door).

Edited October 19, 2014 by Ham_Sandwich27

[Ham_Sandwich27 108]

Maybe when you spawn out its classed as going to sleep

That's reasonable. The problem however is that if you're alseep in your house, you're probably going to be awoken by someone trying to smash your barricades down. So still, being logged out is more analogous to having ceased to exist than it is to having gone to sleep.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Ham_Sandwich27

[pillock 850]

I have a better solution:

 

If 'your' stuff get raided, tough shit.

 

It's an apocalypse, remember?

[Auklin 1]

I have a better solution:

 

If 'your' stuff get raided, tough shit.

 

It's an apocalypse, remember?

 

- slow clap -

 

Great, so the forum is full of simple-minded dolts too, and here I thought it was just reddit.

 

Well, fuck this shit, I'm out.

[Katana67 2907]

Not being able to defend your stuff while offline is part of the risk.

 

Where this becomes problematic, is when there aren't any reasonable mitigating factors. Which is why the meager construction in DayZ mod was pretty much my jam, because I'd just run around scarfing up tons of loot in the woods because there wasn't much people could do about it.

 

Tents stuck out like sore thumbs, there weren't all that many great places to hide them, you couldn't protect them at all, and there was no decent alternative (until later, with stashes).

 

Many things could be suggested, some of which are specific and some of which are systemic, like...

 

- Locks to doors/containers (which should obviously be able to be countered by well-prepared bandits)

- Fences, both scalable and not

- Boobytraps and/or monitoring equipment (i.e. game cameras)

- A more robust, expanded, and varied wilderness in which we can hide structures

- More effective and varied options for camouflage

- Different containers (like stashes from the mod) which are low profile at the expense of being less useful

- Urban "fortresses," the security of which is partially provided for by prohibitive numbers of zombies surrounding said fortress

 

Stuff like that...

Edited October 20, 2014 by Katana67

[Mor (DayZ) 57]

I think that barricading a building is intended as the tent variant with a lock i.e. it will offers a little more protection than a tent, but ultimately none.

As for other possible base building elements fence, traps and all that jazz.. keep inmind that with the exception of invulnerability I am not familiar with a single MMO PVP mechanics that will save you from a raider. You can spend 100 hours, all you do is make yourself a bigger target, and the moment you log out, it will take few minutes for a couple of bandits to piss your effort away.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Mor

[ld-airgrafix 403]

If you left your house to go shops, do you get a msg that someone is robbing you? I want bases to be left unguarded as it will force people to hide their bases instead of barricading right next to army bases and such.

[Katana67 2907]

If you left your house to go shops, do you get a msg that someone is robbing you? I want bases to be left unguarded as it will force people to hide their bases instead of barricading right next to army bases and such.

 

See this is a bit of a generalization.

 

It's not as if hiding your base can't happen on top of securing it physically. If I have something valuable to store, the first thing I'm going to do is remove my storage site from commonly traveled locations/pathways. The second thing I'll do, is try and hide it. Third, is try and make sure that people have a hard time accessing what I've hidden if they can find it.

 

It's not like if fences and locks get implemented, it'll somehow remove the advantages of a well-hidden base.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Katana67