Creating gear independent character value

[c4tch22 25]

Hi everyone, this is really going to be a pretty long post, and if you decide to read it, please read the whole thing before commenting. Thanks!

 

What this thread is about

I’ve thought of a concept to create gear independent character value. I’d like to elaborate on this concept and on the reasons behind why I think it would fit the environment of dayZ.

 

What this thread is NOT about

Specifics of possible skills, numbers, details. If I somewhere write that something could i.e. be unlocked after being alive 3 ingame hours, don’t bash me because I wrote “3”. I don’t care about the numbers, I care about the idea and every detail like that is made up off the top of my head for the sake of a complete example.

 

So..here we go:

 

What is gear independent character value and why do I think it is important?

DayZ is a survival game right? In its core the goal of the game is - or should be - to survive, at all costs. The decisions that we make to reach this goal are what make this game so exciting.

But right now there is only one thing important to us that we fear losing - gear. If you rob me in between Stary Sobor and the NWAF and leave me with nothing but my life - right now - I’d be far better of if you kill me in the process than leaving me there, probably wounded, hungry, thirsty and unarmed.

 

As a consequence every person being robbed will always take the most laughable, most tiny chance to make an escape or kill you (the robber) instead of accepting their fate since there is (except gear) literally nothing to lose.

 

If we were to value the life of our character itself and fear to lose that, there would be so much more room for awesome situations in this game than we already have right now.

 

Now, I know I’m not the first person coming up with this. Many people have stated that there needs to be something like this, including Dean himself on reddit, though he’s been pretty vage.  I’m aware that we’re simply not yet at the point in development where such features are added, but since I’ve never read about anyone from the dev team mentioning something along these lines in any devblog or roadmap post, or giving any details as to in which direction they want to head with this I thought I’d just give it a go.

 

The obvious solution.

You don’t have to be a genius to come to the conclusion that there is really only one thing you can do to make a character valuable if not through equipment:

The implementation of some sort of skills and/or attributes that can be learned and/or improved over time. But - imho - that splits into two main problems:

 

1) What are skills that would fit into dayZ, how would they look, what would they let you do, etc.

2) How do we aquire these skills, how do we improve, what do we lose upon death.

 

As mentioned above this thread is about explaining a concept so I’ll be focussing on problem 2. I don’t really care how exactly skills or perks or however you want to call them will look. We could all probably come up with a ton of awesome ideas, that’s not the point of this thread though.

 

A look at well-established character progression models in games

So, while thinking about what would fit dayZ I thought about a lot of existing systems and how they would work in dayZ. Let me share my thoughts about some of them:

 

The classic RPG model

How it works: Choose some kind of class -> do stuff to gain XP -> gain XP to gain levels -> gain levels to unlock new skills.

In DayZ: The main problem I see here is: Do what to gain XP? Kill? Kill zombies? Use items? Heal players? Whatever will give you most XP, people will figure it out and abuse it. This would heavily impact how people play the game and change it into a necessary grind to gain xp instead of adding to the depth. I don’t like it.

 

The ‘learn through consumables/findables’ model

How it works: You find something (like a gun magazine in Fallout) and it improves or teaches you a perk.

In DayZ: It might work quite okay, though it would be heavily luck based what you find. You might find that one perk 5 times, and never another one. And again it would be abused. We all know that people find out ways to flip loot, find best spawns etc. People would probably camp spots where the “first aid manual” spawns and just be back to their old power in a relatively short time after their death, or have tents/stashes full of those manuals so they can reskill back up instantly after a death.

 

The FPS loadout model

How it works: In games like Call of Duty and Battlefield, out of a big reportoire of options you define the specific skillset you want to play with for this round and spawn in with it, unable to change it until you die.

In DayZ: I kind of like the variability of this, but a loadout is nothing more than a configuration of weapons most of the time and we want gear independence. So what’s left is that one to three perk slots those games normally give us. I like that, but it wouldn’t be char progression if we would just spawn with them.

 

Conclusion

Considering the above our character progression model should:

• Not force the player to play in a specific way

• Avoid exploitability or incentivizing looking for exploits

• Grant customizability as well as progression

• Require time to rebuild up, avoiding ways to play the system

 

My proposition

So finally, after all the jibber-jabber here’s finally my proposition for the progression system:

 

• Every character gets a set number of ‘perk slots’ on spawn, for the sake of the example let’s stick through this with three.

• All three of these slots will initially be locked. They will unlock over ingame time alive, one after another.

• Not all perks will be equal in quality, they would be tiered, starting with giving you your ‘Tier 1 Perk Slot’ after a rather short period of time, following with Tier 2 after maybe something several hours of alive time and ending with Tier 3 with a really really long time. Something people would rarely achieve.

• The perk quality should reflect the rarity of the slots. So Tier 1 perks would pe rather baseline, Tier 2 would be really cool, and Tier 3 “like totally imba, dude!!! Sooo OP!!!111”

• The pool of perks you could choose from wouldn’t be unlocked and the same for everyone, but rather accountbound.

• There would be a list, some kind of achievement archive, where you could look up what you would have to do to learn, i.e. “Basic First Aid”. You would then do that ingame and unlock “Basic First Aid” as a perk that you can choose ingame once you unlock your Tier 1 Perk slot.

 

What are the advantages of this system?

• Everyone can continue to play how they like it most, it doesn’t dictate playstyle.

• It creates some kind of meta progression, giving you character independent long term goals (unlocking the perks through achievements) without giving you an unfair advantage over “newbies”. It also gives you goals in situations where you don’t really know what there’s left to do ingame, and we know these situations exist.

• The character grows stronger purely through the time he has survived. That’s not abusable and it emphasizes the core goal of the game.

• It allows you to specialize for a specific role in your group of people you play with, you can be good at stuff, and suck at other stuff. Decisions, trade offs, good stuff!

• It’s compatible with whatever kind of skills or perks the dev team comes up with. Passives, actives, buffs, whatever, everything could be added to the pool of perks.

• The way to aquire a perk wouldn’t be always the same, the requirements to fulfill such an achievement could be whatever they think of. “Have you already unlocked that really really hardcore imba Tier 3 perk where you have to kill a player with every gun ingame in one life? How are you supposed to pull THAT off ???” ...that kinda stuff. Variety is the key!

 

So thats that, I hope you like it, add to the discussion, tell me what you think. I apologize for any form of typos or bullshit english, I’m not a native speaker so please be kind.  Take it as what it is - the thoughts of a fan that needed to be written down  ;)

 

tl;dr: don’t even bother  :D

Edited June 5, 2014 by c4tch22

[DMentMan 707]

i didin´t read it but… beans for a long post.

 

edit: i now regret giving you beans, you said something about XP and skills.. NO! BAD!

Edited June 5, 2014 by DMentMan

[Element47 2480]

this is an excellent post, which deserves more thought and appreciation than i can spare at the moment, as i am working. i will edit my post later to include my take on your suggestions, for the time being take this:

 

[NuckFuts 265]

No.

[fowang 60]

Don't know if I would want this but well thought out! have some beanZ

[benedictus 160]

I dont know, my opinnion is that since 99% games out there already have RPG elements, it would be fresh touch if DayZ actually wouldnt do it.

Especially when you want to rank the perks from 1-3 where the number 3 would be somekind of gamechanger = no game before rank 3 perks.

 

Same goes with achievements, they are just as easy and cheap way to add "content" without really adding anything else than time sinks for players.

[DemonGroover 8836]

I am not keen on skills or perks but i understand where you are coming from.

 

If skills ever were implemented i would prefer them to be passive (sights not bobbing as much, bit more blood healed, running a bit faster, fixing a car quicker etc etc) and the "levelling" up happens without you really knowing about it, you just get better at the things you do more of.

 

Of course this then leads to the grinding issue like in Oblivion and Skyrim where you do things over and over to increase your skill.

 

So, in closing, i'd rather not.

[c4tch22 25]

I dont know, my opinnion is that since 99% games out there already have RPG elements, it would be fresh touch if DayZ actually wouldnt do it.

Especially when you want to rank the perks from 1-3 where the number 3 would be somekind of gamechanger = no game before rank 3 perks.

 

Same goes with achievements, they are just as easy and cheap way to add "content" without really adding anything else than time sinks for players.

Well, gamechanger as in 'becoming invincible/invulnerable' yes, definately not that! But whatever they do, it'll have to be awesome enough to be worth the trouble. 

 

I share your general stance on achievements, but here they would have an actual meaning instead of just being an epeen-o-meter. Go ahead and don't call them achievements, don't give them silly names and achievement points. I just brought the comparison up, so people know along what lines I imagine the tasks required for unlocking. In essence, just a list with elaborate objectives to clear for a skill reward.

 

I am not keen on skills or perks but i understand where you are coming from.

 

If skills ever were implemented i would prefer them to be passive (sights not bobbing as much, bit more blood healed, running a bit faster, fixing a car quicker etc etc) and the "levelling" up happens without you really knowing about it, you just get better at the things you do more of.

 

Of course this then leads to the grinding issue like in Oblivion and Skyrim where you do things over and over to increase your skill.

 

So, in closing, i'd rather not.

 

I agree with you, I prefer passives too (for DayZ) and wouldn't like to see active skills. One approach could be to take away what we now have (that everyone is able to use every item ingame) and make us learn to use some of them properly via perks.

For instance, make perks required for using saline bags / Defibrillators or what not.

Edited June 5, 2014 by c4tch22

[c4tch22 25]

i didin´t read it but… beans for a long post.

 

edit: i now regret giving you beans, you said something about XP and skills.. NO! BAD!

I too said that XP are bad....read it please ;)

Edited June 5, 2014 by c4tch22

[DMentMan 707]

I too said that XP are bad....read it please ;)

uugh, do i have to?

im tired… 

[DemonGroover 8836]

Perhaps the option is simply you have to read a book before you can do some of the more outrageous stuff.

 

Fix a Huey - "Hi Tech Helicopter repairs for Dummies"

Giving a blood bag - "Dr Funbags Gives Blood Bags"

Using a Defib - "Clear!!"

Injecting Morphine - "The Funky Junkie"

Butchering an Animal - "The Naked Butcher"

 

It's late here i'm going to bed!

[c4tch22 25]

uugh, do i have to?

im tired… 

 

Take the day off, go have a beer or two and read it tommorow  B)

[11tw 106]

There is an element of this survival skill skill tree in the new Lara Croft reboot. By hunting, collecting items, and killing people she gains certain skills, e.g. better at using pistols, draw bowstring faster etc.

 

Certain elements of your proposal are attractive, others aren't. I like the time-based idea, and if it were an intuitive system that tailored to your playstyle, then that would be great.

 

My ideal, would be after three hours of survival, you get your first perk, and depending on what you have done in that time you can choose different perks. If in that time you have found and fired a gun, then a reloading speed perk. If in that time you have found a backpack, then a more space in backpacks perk (sounds unrealistic, but I know people who can fit twice as much stuff into a suitcase than me because they are good at it). If in that time you have beaten a zombie to death with a baseball bat, then an increased melee damage perk.

 

The perks would have to be:

 

1: Subtle

2: Rewarding

3: Relevant

 

Ideally it would in spirit match the classic RPG idea of: you are what you play.

Edited June 5, 2014 by 11tw

[11tw 106]

Perhaps the option is simply you have to read a book before you can do some of the more outrageous stuff.

 

Fix a Huey - "Hi Tech Helicopter repairs for Dummies"

Giving a blood bag - "Dr Funbags Gives Blood Bags"

Using a Defib - "Clear!!"

Injecting Morphine - "The Funky Junkie"

Butchering an Animal - "The Naked Butcher"

 

It's late here i'm going to bed!

I already did a topic on a character who learns certain gun facts and medical procedures from reading manuals hidden in certain areas. Not many people liked it...

[DMentMan 707]

Take the day off, go have a beer or two and read it tommorow  B)

i´ll just have one

[Gdaddy22 299]

Yes, Anyone who says "no" is a Rust or H1Z1 spy whose task is to kill DayZ from inside

[TinUKCS 20]

Not the biggest fan of having perks, not in this game atleast. Although some of your suggestions aren't too bad in my eyes, none of them are really satisfactory.

 

If the devs ever implement something with skills and what not, I would rather have the system the game Red Orchestra 2 uses (ofcourse tailored to the needs of this game). It's pretty much the same as what DemonGroover suggested, but just like him I'd rather not have a skill system.

 

 

I am not keen on skills or perks but i understand where you are coming from.

 

If skills ever were implemented i would prefer them to be passive (sights not bobbing as much, bit more blood healed, running a bit faster, fixing a car quicker etc etc) and the "levelling" up happens without you really knowing about it, you just get better at the things you do more of.

 

Of course this then leads to the grinding issue like in Oblivion and Skyrim where you do things over and over to increase your skill.

 

So, in closing, i'd rather not.

[c4tch22 25]

Perhaps the option is simply you have to read a book before you can do some of the more outrageous stuff.

 

Fix a Huey - "Hi Tech Helicopter repairs for Dummies"

Giving a blood bag - "Dr Funbags Gives Blood Bags"

Using a Defib - "Clear!!"

Injecting Morphine - "The Funky Junkie"

Butchering an Animal - "The Naked Butcher"

 

It's late here i'm going to bed!

Well, tbh I think that would just add another layer to the item late game. What's the difference between a perk and an AKM rifle when they're both just items I have to take out of my tent after respawning? Learning them through items defeats the whole purpose of why there should be a perk/skill system in the first place.

[nexventor 429]

I am really undecided on this. I like the idea to increase value of life but I am not convinced this is the correct method. 

 

You also need to realise that this will NOT decrease KoS if that is your objective. 

 

Some people, myself included just don't give a shit about certain aspects of the game and just like to kill people. Why do I need to know about blood bagging and heli flying when one of my team who doesn't like engaging can do that? All this will do is penalise the lone wolf'ers out there.

 

Players like me have no need to "skill" up unless there was some sort of weapon buff or perk, which IMO is big HELL NO!

 

IMO, the best way to make you value your life is to make spawning an absolute pain in the ass. For example (I am not actually suggesting this should be implemented, just merely an extreme example) imagine if you spawned on an island and had to swim for 15 minutes before you got to shore or you had absolutely no health and food and a some sort of illness when first spawned. Surviving should be hard when you first spawn, you should die a lot as a fresh spawn... like really hard. Super hard.

 

To me that is the only fair way with hindering any ones play style and without ruining the game. 

[Rigor Mortis (DayZ) 141]

First, I want to say that this was a well written and insightful post - there was only one minor (and moderately hilarious) misspelling that I felt the need to highlight:

 

"...including Dean himself on reddit, though he’s been pretty vage."

 

Sorry about that, I can't help myself.  Now, on to my opinion on this.  I completely agree with you that there should be more value to a player's life in this game, especially considering that surviving is a huge part of the game. I disagree, however, with your solution.  I don't like the idea of having perk slots because it's unrealistic and frankly ridiculous... plus giving players 'objectives' just isn't part of this game.  I have a compromise that I hope people will read.

 

I think characters should have invisible stats such as healing, sewing, reloading, weapon switching, fire starting, animal cleaning, etc. When your character performs an action for one of these skills, you will get slightly better at it, just like in real life (practice makes perfect).  For the game that means your animation for that skill might get faster, or you might be able to do that skill while moving, or you might be able to do it better (example: sewing can make things 'pristine' at some point).  To avoid those individuals that would just grind their way to being badasses, I think there should be a global skill cap based on your hours alive in the game.  This way you could only 'grind' your way so far before you were maxed out for how long you have been 'alive.'

 

To reiterate, these stats should _NOT_ be visible to players!  We all would know they are there, but unless you were keeping count of every reload, every right click, every door open, every.... you get the idea... then you wouldn't know how high your skill was.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Rigor Mortis

[Chaingunfighter 917]

First, I want to say that this was a well written and insightful post - there was only one minor (and moderately hilarious) misspelling that I felt the need to highlight:

 

"...including Dean himself on reddit, though he’s been pretty vage."

 

Sorry about that, I can't help myself.  Now, on to my opinion on this.  I completely agree with you that there should be more value to a player's life in this game, especially considering that surviving is a huge part of the game. I disagree, however, with your solution.  I don't like the idea of having perk slots because it's unrealistic and frankly ridiculous... plus giving players 'objectives' just isn't part of this game.  I have a compromise that I hope people will read.

 

I think characters should have invisible stats such as healing, sewing, reloading, weapon switching, fire starting, animal cleaning, etc. When your character performs an action for one of these skills, you will get slightly better at it, just like in real life (practice makes perfect).  For the game that means your animation for that skill might get faster, or you might be able to do that skill while moving, or you might be able to do it better (example: sewing can make things 'pristine' at some point).  To avoid those individuals that would just grind their way to being badasses, I think there should be a global skill cap based on your hours alive in the game.  This way you could only 'grind' your way so far before you were maxed out for how long you have been 'alive.'

 

To reiterate, these stats should _NOT_ be visible to players!  We all would know they are there, but unless you were keeping count of every reload, every right click, every door open, every.... you get the idea... then you wouldn't know how high your skill was.

People would probably still invent scripts that tracked your stats.

 

Also, the method of preventing skill grinding seems rather arbitrary, as some people can learn things very quickly while others take long periods of time to accumulate. Gameplay balance could take precedent in this issue, but in this instance I'd say that we just not have skills to begin with. I like the idea of people valuing their lives, but as someone stated before, none of the solutions I've heard of sound too appealing;

- 'Skill-books' that unlock actions/enhance your skills can be hoarded in tents, and are also arbitrary (what exactly is preventing you from attempting an action, even if you are more likely to screw it up)

- 'Learning actions over time', definitely more realistic, but it would happen at set rates, and sometimes allow grinding. Even in instances that it did not, people would still make sure to max out their skill levels as much as they can for the set periods they're allowed to.

- 'Regular RPG-styled XP gain' it's a good feature when executed well, as choosing your perks and gaining XP is definitely a fun feature for many games, but I don't think it would fit DayZ very well. Yes, it's a game, but I think having even basic skill-trees require too much suspension of disbelief. That may just be me, but nonetheless.

 

My personal solution for users being able to repair engines, or start-up helicopters, or use defibrillators and blood transfusion kits, would be to have the systems themselves be complex and require the needed steps to be drawn out and executed as necessary. It's still not perfect, as these kinds of systems take a while to develop and aren't usually well represented in video games, unless the game is specifically simulating them (such as flight simulators). I mean, how would they even do the blood transfusion thing? Press action bar buttons in the correct form & order, or do some sort of surgeon simulator-esque movement? I don't think that either of those would work very well.

What this system does allow for is the individual player's real knowledge to be put to the test (if you really knew how to start up a helicopter and the systems worked like reality, for instance) and do not arbitrarily increase with lifespan. But then to that end, it would only make you, the real person, valuable, and it's not like you forget everything you've learned in real life once you die in-game.

 

Having tough respawn conditions like being weak and ill when spawning are interesting, but a new freshspawn still has nothing to lose, as they'll just respawn with the same conditions. All it would really do is create a further gap between long-survived players and new spawns in terms of survival rate. But a new spawn is still willing to risk their life to get some well-geared guys' equipment if he knows his death will result in the exact same respawn conditions. Death timers could probably alleviate it, but it's a harsh punishment with all of spawn camping and glitch/hack deaths that do occur, meaning that most new spawns would be waiting a very long time before they could actually play.

 

Ugh, it's late and I'm tired. I'm all in support of increasing player-life value, but everything I've seen thus far is either too simplified, complex, far fetched, or unfitting in general.

[c4tch22 25]

I mean, how would they even do the blood transfusion thing? Press action bar buttons in the correct form & order, or do some sort of surgeon simulator-esque movement? I don't think that either of those would work very well.

No, more like if you don't have the 'medicine perk' (or whatever) you simply don't get the context menu option / mousewheel option to use it - at all.

 

Having tough respawn conditions like being weak and ill when spawning are interesting, but a new freshspawn still has nothing to lose, as they'll just respawn with the same conditions. All it would really do is create a further gap between long-survived players and new spawns in terms of survival rate. But a new spawn is still willing to risk their life to get some well-geared guys' equipment if he knows his death will result in the exact same respawn conditions. Death timers could probably alleviate it, but it's a harsh punishment with all of spawn camping and glitch/hack deaths that do occur, meaning that most new spawns would be waiting a very long time before they could actually play.

 

Several people seem to understand my reasoning as something along the lines of making death penalty harsher. That's not the point. It's (for me) not about respawn being even more of a pain in the ass, but having reasons not to want to die while you're still alive. The only reason right now is gear.

[alsmir 255]

No.

RPG games that way ->

 

Your character skill is based on what you can do. Whether is it experience with current shooting mechanics, map knowledge, ability to find north, perception, good hearing etc.

 

If you're sh*t - you're character should be aswell.

[11tw 106]

Now, on to my opinion on this.  I completely agree with you that there should be more value to a player's life in this game, especially considering that surviving is a huge part of the game. I disagree, however, with your solution.  I don't like the idea of having perk slots because it's unrealistic and frankly ridiculous... plus giving players 'objectives' just isn't part of this game.  I have a compromise that I hope people will read.

 

I think characters should have invisible stats such as healing, sewing, reloading, weapon switching, fire starting, animal cleaning, etc. When your character performs an action for one of these skills, you will get slightly better at it, just like in real life (practice makes perfect).  For the game that means your animation for that skill might get faster, or you might be able to do that skill while moving, or you might be able to do it better (example: sewing can make things 'pristine' at some point).  To avoid those individuals that would just grind their way to being badasses, I think there should be a global skill cap based on your hours alive in the game.  This way you could only 'grind' your way so far before you were maxed out for how long you have been 'alive.'

 

To reiterate, these stats should _NOT_ be visible to players!  We all would know they are there, but unless you were keeping count of every reload, every right click, every door open, every.... you get the idea... then you wouldn't know how high your skill was.

I would agree with you on the invisible part, as immersion in a realistic game shouldn't be ruined by a sound effect and a stat bar (e.g. skyrim). However I would say that the only reason this would make any sense would be if you started out terrible at everything. I know that if I reloaded a gun I would take a ridiculous amount of time. I also know that most people can't sow, and that most people don't know how to clean a rifle. Starting off, sewing something should only turn it from ruined to badly damaged, then after fifty (just a random number, don't pick me up on the number) times sewing something and a certain amount of time survived, your sewing skill would be set so that it would fully restore a ruined piece of clothing.

 

The same for reloading, it would probably take me 20-30 seconds to reload a gun while staying still, and I simply wouldn't be able to do it while running. Everyone should start off like this, then get faster every time they do it.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

 

No, more like if you don't have the 'medicine perk' (or whatever) you simply don't get the context menu option / mousewheel option to use it - at all.

 

 

Several people seem to understand my reasoning as something along the lines of making death penalty harsher. That's not the point. It's (for me) not about respawn being even more of a pain in the ass, but having reasons not to want to die while you're still alive. The only reason right now is gear.

 

I understand that it does. The problem is, the solution has to be implemented well.

Crime is a huge problem in the real world, and it would be very easy to say "anyone caught violating the law will be executed", but with present-day ideology that would not be accepted by very many people and could also result in the deaths of innocent people convicted of minor crimes.

 

It's not the best analogy, but the point is that taking a "skill system" route might not work like some people think they will. Also, my whole point was that having to have a specific perk in order to unlock actions is incredibly arbitrary and suspends realism quite a lot for just making your characters more valuable. There's nothing actually stopping you from attempting blood bagging, or applying bandages, or defibrillators, or whatever. Sure, you'd have a much bigger probability of screwing something up if you had never done it before, but it's not like some forcefield is preventing you from doing anything ahead of time. If they had to had some sort of skill improvement, then I'd just have it be minor values like an increased chance/effectiveness of blood bagging, rather than simply needing said perk in order to even use it.

 

The one player-life increasing value concept I am in full support of is beards. Yes, they're almost purely cosmetic, and probably wouldn't affect female characters, but some people would grow incredibly attached to them. Whether or not it would actually alleviate people risking their lives so much, I cannot say, but in general I think it's a good idea to show character age.