No "Specialized" Cartridges [Torchia Tweet]

[Katana67 2907]

In response to a Twitter inquiry regarding the possible inclusion of the VSS Vintorez, Chris Torchia (Scubaman3D) responded as follows...

 

"love it but its got some specialized ammo not used in many guns so its inefficient to add it in with the current loot sys" ~ @ctorchia

 

Now, this is interesting to me for two reasons. One, it pretty much means that we won't be seeing specialized weapon calibers and that they'll be sticking with the more common cartridges (i.e. 7.62x39, 5.45x39, 5.56x45, 7.62x51, etc.)

 

I'm not explicitly against this from an "ease of development" point of view, but I think that it's sort of a bad way to approach weapon rarity.

 

Making both the weapon and the ammunition rare is essential. If the ammunition can be used in a variety of weapons (i.e. common to rare) then the ammunition itself will probably end up being common. Which was a huge detriment in the mod, where one could find DMR mags (the proverbial analog for boxes of 7.62x51 in SA) in just about every location in DayZ.

 

Second, it rules out a great deal of weapons. Which is both good and bad. I'm sure folks will be devastated with this news of the VSS not being a priority (or even being considered at this moment), but it also means that weapons like PDWs and certain hunting/sniping cartridges may not be included. I mean, we've really just got generic "7.62" for all weapons now (it says 7.62x51, but it's able to be used on the B95 and Mosin).

 

So, to you all, if you were to pick three weapon cartridges to add to the game as it stands, what would they be?

 

I'd pick .30-06 (as a hunting cartridge), .338 LM (as a sniping cartridge), and perhaps .50 BMG (as an anti-materiel cartridge). I'd list 7.62x54R and 5.45x39, but they seem to be inbound or amalgamated under other cartridges in-game (rightly or wrongly).

Edited May 13, 2014 by Katana67

[FrostDMG 398]

Damn VSS would be awesome...

I agree though that guns and ammo should be rare, and like you said, having multiple guns sharing same caliber will indeed make it very common...

[Karmaterror 982]

Maybe they just mean in the short term, like they want to focus on the guns they can do right now with the ammo they have. Then maybe later do some specialised stuff. I hope so at least, we do need a couple of guns in the game that 90% of players never see, making for those "omg....is that guy carrying a ...." moments :)

[Katana67 2907]

Maybe they just mean in the short term, like they want to focus on the guns they can do right now with the ammo they have. Then maybe later do some specialised stuff. I hope so at least, we do need a couple of guns in the game that 90% of players never see, making for those "omg....is that guy carrying a ...." moments :)

 

I'm just not sure what those guns should be. I mean, anti-materiel rifles are the low hanging obvious fruit for that one. But I don't want things like LMGs/GPMGs to be hyper rare like that. Now, granted, I want them to be much rarer than they were in the mod, and much more difficult to arm/maintain/operate than in the mod. But I don't want them to go overboard with the loot management as to make certain weapons hyper rare which are more than just party pieces, they actually have a distinct role.

 

Things like anti-materiel rifles are pretty much just party pieces. I can snipe and drop folks just as well with an SVD. Same applies for the VSS, so I'm not sure it makes sense to therefore manage both the weapon spawns and ammo spawns on the hive.

 

In contrast to their loot management system, I'd rather they just adopt the traditional approach and add a lot of weapons and cartridges, and tweak the spawn rarity from there. Certain things like anti-materiel rifles should indeed be managed, but it's not the fault of the weapon... and more the fault of the fact that we can farm loot and move loot from server to server that requires a loot management system from the hive. If those two issues (more or less one, just server hopping in general) were remedied, then they wouldn't need to devote resources to managing the loot.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Katana67

[hombrecz 832]

Personally I am still kinda against adding of .50 cals since I doubt Devs would manage to make them more realistic so almost not possible to fire effectively from any other position then prone or when braced against something.

 

Lately Torchia kinda broke my heart by saying, that they do not consider adding of Sa vz.58 to the game, since it fits the same role as AKM and does not look distinctive enough.

I could understand that creating it now would not be a priority, but surely it would be good to have wider variety of the same calibre & role weapons right?

 

So I hope, that they could add more rare calibers & cartridges & weapons later in development.

[Katana67 2907]

Personally I am still kinda against adding of .50 cals since I doubt Devs would manage to make them more realistic so almost not possible to fire effectively from any other position then prone or when braced against something.

 

Lately Torchia kinda broke my heart by saying, that they do not consider adding of Sa vz.58 to the game, since it fits the same role as AKM and does not look distinctive enough.

I could understand that creating it now would not be a priority, but surely it would be good to have wider variety of the same calibre & role weapons right?

 

So I hope, that they could add more rare calibers & cartridges & weapons later in development.

 

Well yeah, but we have heard that they plan on making certain weapons more unwieldy to move about with. Which is a step in the right direction. We haven't heard anything regarding any potential for anti-materiel rifles at all from the developers, and I doubt they'll be included in the first place. But still worth discussing.

 

I sort of agree with Torchia's reasoning, but I don't think it's grounds to categorically dismiss any weapon. So I feel your pain.

 

I'm just thinking that the developers haven't really considered why they're doing what they're doing with regard to loot rarity. Point being, the loot management system. The only reason it's necessary is due to server hopping (i.e. managing a fixed number of rare weapons on a particular hive [public] as to limit their gradual permeation). But it's not necessary if one were to just... not allow server hopping. Then they could actually just tweak the spawn values of certain weapons as to make them rare without actually adding to the workload.

 

I never had an issue with the loot system (as a whole) in the mod, but I took immense issue with the tangential mechanics which allowed for its exploitation. I think they should've just stuck with the mod's loot paradigm, made things more rare via traditional means, and remedied server hopping as a means of transferring loot.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Katana67

[hombrecz 832]

...

 

Devs have a lot of possibilities to fix a lot of bad stuff from mod.

Stuff like AS50 being able to be accurately hipfired thus used as SKS, which was wrong (true story).

Will they mange? That remains yet to be seen although so far it does not look that optimistic (weird weapon accuracy, attachment mumbo jumbo etc).

 

I agree that server hopping for loot is BIG issue. One that I am not sure Devs will managed to fix. That was another reason why I liked private hives so much.

No ghosting, no hopping for loot = good times.

 

And thanks for kinda supporting adding of Vz.58, I appreciate it.

[Karmaterror 982]

I'm just not sure what those guns should be. I mean, anti-materiel rifles are the low hanging obvious fruit for that one. But I don't want things like LMGs/GPMGs to be hyper rare like that. Now, granted, I want them to be much rarer than they were in the mod, and much more difficult to arm/maintain/operate than in the mod. But I don't want them to go overboard with the loot management as to make certain weapons hyper rare which are more than just party pieces, they actually have a distinct role.

 

Things like anti-materiel rifles are pretty much just party pieces. I can snipe and drop folks just as well with an SVD. Same applies for the VSS, so I'm not sure it makes sense to therefore manage both the weapon spawns and ammo spawns on the hive.

 

In contrast to their loot management system, I'd rather they just adopt the traditional approach and add a lot of weapons and cartridges, and tweak the spawn rarity from there. Certain things like anti-materiel rifles should indeed be managed, but it's not the fault of the weapon... and more the fault of the fact that we can farm loot and move loot from server to server that requires a loot management system from the hive. If those two issues (more or less one, just server hopping in general) were remedied, then they wouldn't need to devote resources to managing the loot.

 

I don't want everything super rare, but one or two guns that hardly ever spawn would be awesome. I think it could work with the .50 cals, for two reasons.

 

One they aren't that OP....as you say an SVD is just as deadly in the right hands.

 

Two it unlocks a very rare and valuable ability....the ability to stop a wheeled vehicle dead in its tracks , instead of aiming for a wheel or the driver, someone could just lapm the engine block a few times and boom.

 

Im with ya on the spawn system, I don't see whats wrong with just loot respawn % chance. Don't get me wrong the global item economy sounds great, but its not needed for every item. Just those few "party pieces" would need to be managed :) 

[taco86 156]

The key portion of the tweet is "its inefficient to add it in with the current loot sys".  This quote gives two major clues imo...  First and most importantly...  The current loot system is not absolute, there are obvious problems with it that the developers have acknowledged.  Secondly, specialized cartriges are not "off the table" assuming a new more robust and dynamic loot spawning system...

 

Still plenty of room for optimism in regards to this weapon...  We all just need to be realistic about time lines...  Don't expect to see it within the next 2 years.

[OrLoK 16182]

Hello there

 

Im also erring on the "current loot system" aspect.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[Katana67 2907]

Im also erring on the "current loot system" aspect.

 

I just don't see what could change as to justify a reversal of what was said. I mean, yeah, granted... a ways down the road... they might have time to be adding ancillary things like non-essential weapons with specialized calibers.

 

But for the foreseeable future, this appears to be what we're going to be living with (i.e. weapons with common cartridges).

 

That and his use of "current loot system" seemed to be irrelevant, as one could theoretically add a VSS and 9x39 in the current loot system without an issue. It's just a matter of resource prioritization and end goals. The items themselves aren't in conflict with the loot mechanic we have now, they could be added. It's just that they appear to conflict with the grand objectives that they have.

 

Loot management isn't going to change that, if anything, it may make including things like the VSS less likely.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Katana67

[OrLoK 16182]

Hello there

 

I just think the devs have more on their minds with the engine as a whole and what they want to do with it than to concentrate on "exotic" weaponry.

 

I think the goal is to get a load of standard weaponry in covering the "basics" to be used throughout testing and then add different "exotic" calibers etc later.

 

I don't think it lessens the chance of the VSS appearing, I just think its part of a set to be added down the line.

 

Its such an Iconic weapon both from the USSR and the Apocalyptic scenario I just don't see it not being included at some stage. However that stage may be far off.

 

Im not worried judging by the tone of the tweet.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[taco86 156]

So, to you all, if you were to pick three weapon cartridges to add to the game as it stands, what would they be?

 

Hmmm...  This is actually a tough one...

 

I'd go with 5.45x39, 7.62x54r, and .338.

[hombrecz 832]

Hmmm...  This is actually a tough one...

 

I'd go with 5.45x39

 

That one will be in game, I would bet money on it.

What I do not understand is, that we did not get AK74 long time ago, since it was AK74 they showed in one of their pre-release vids. Well it could have been ported model from mod, but still, AK74 is must have.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Hombre

[Katana67 2907]

That one will be in game, I would bet money on it.

What I do not understand is, that we did not get AK74 long time ago, since it was AK74 they showed in one of their pre-release vids. Well it could have been ported model from mod, but still, AK74 is must have.

 

Yeah I'm not quite sure what happened with it either. It couldn't've needed much work, certainly no more than the AKM. Perhaps they pulled it to fiddle with the attachments? I've got no explanation.

 

[Deathlove 2280]

In response to a Twitter inquiry regarding the possible inclusion of the VSS Vintorez, Chris Torchia (Scubaman3D) responded as follows...

 

"love it but its got some specialized ammo not used in many guns so its inefficient to add it in with the current loot sys" ~ @ctorchia

 

Now, this is interesting to me for two reasons. One, it pretty much means that we won't be seeing specialized weapon calibers and that they'll be sticking with the more common cartridges (i.e. 7.62x39, 5.45x39, 5.56x45, 7.62x51, etc.)

 

I'm not explicitly against this from an "ease of development" point of view, but I think that it's sort of a bad way to approach weapon rarity.

 

Making both the weapon and the ammunition rare is essential. If the ammunition can be used in a variety of weapons (i.e. common to rare) then the ammunition itself will probably end up being common. Which was a huge detriment in the mod, where one could find DMR mags (the proverbial analog for boxes of 7.62x51 in SA) in just about every location in DayZ.

 

Second, it rules out a great deal of weapons. Which is both good and bad. I'm sure folks will be devastated with this news of the VSS not being a priority (or even being considered at this moment), but it also means that weapons like PDWs and certain hunting/sniping cartridges may not be included. I mean, we've really just got generic "7.62" for all weapons now (it says 7.62x51, but it's able to be used on the B95 and Mosin).

 

So, to you all, if you were to pick three weapon cartridges to add to the game as it stands, what would they be?

 

I'd pick .30-06 (as a hunting cartridge), .338 LM (as a sniping cartridge), and perhaps .50 BMG (as an anti-materiel cartridge). I'd list 7.62x54R and 5.45x39, but they seem to be inbound or amalgamated under other cartridges in-game (rightly or wrongly).

This whole stand against bullet diversity really hurts the overall effectiveness of some of the weapons and just seems lazy to me. As quoted by some ppl im curious if they are just going to take the easy way out with the whole Subsonic rounds for silencers. Rather than take the realistic approach and include the actual bullets.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Deathlove

[Katana67 2907]

This whole stand against bullet diversity really hurts the overall effectiveness of some of the weapons and just seems lazy to me. As quoted by some ppl im curious if they are just going to take the easy way out with the whole Subsonic rounds for silencers. Rather than take the realistic approach and include the actual bullets.

 

To be honest, it really doesn't matter to me either way. If it saves them the headache of making suppressors AND subsonic rounds, then I'd be alright with them going ahead and just having a suppressor = subsonic-quiet with no separate requirement for different rounds.

 

But, I would also be cool with the suppressors just modulating the sound of supersonic rounds (as most do in real life).

 

Either way they want to go with it, I'd support it.

[Deathlove 2280]

To be honest, it really doesn't matter to me either way. If it saves them the headache of making suppressors AND subsonic rounds, then I'd be alright with them going ahead and just having a suppressor = subsonic-quiet with no separate requirement for different rounds.

 

But, I would also be cool with the suppressors just modulating the sound of supersonic rounds (as most do in real life).

 

Either way they want to go with it, I'd support it.

Limiting ammo types may cause less of a headache for the developers i will agree. And ether way im fine with whatever they come out with. But doesn't that take allot away from the whole realism thing everyone wants in the game? lol

[gibonez 3633]

I guess this is a hint that we will not be seeing any obscure weapons in the future.

 

Atleast in the near future.

 

I am kinda glad they are going for a streamlined approach when it comes to ammo. Only makes sense they add firearms in the worlds most popular calibers.

[Bororm 1156]

Uhh are you guys forgetting that they just said this not long ago?

Also, we’ve completed a pistol that I think will give players some new gameplay options. It fires a .30 cal rifle cartridge and comes with a long eye relief scope. We’ve simply taking to calling it the Longhorn.

Or that they have a blaze double rifle in the game?  I think you guys are sorta being overly dramatic to say we won't be seeing any "obscure" weapons.

 

Any ways, it was easy to tell from the start that they prefer to add in guns with a type of ammo that's commonly shared, so as to not just have to introduce new types of rounds with every single gun.  For instance, they added the 9mm pistol and it was easy to guess an smg would be next.  Then they confirmed the mp5 is in the works.  

 

I'm not disagreeing with the topic, I think it would be great to have more variety, but I don't think it's far fetched to think we'll get it eventually.  At the end of the day we've hardly got any guns in the game right now compared to the mod.  It makes more sense to not have to design entirely new ammo every time they add a gun at this point in development.  Wait till they actually round out the arsenal a bit, this shit will come even if it's after release.

 

Also, get used to server hopping.  I personally agree that it's a sorta shitty game design and detracts more than it adds to gameplay, but Rocket is adamant about how it's a "pillar of DayZ."  Eventually there will be less incentive to hop though at least, and things should settle down a bit.

[Katana67 2907]

Uhh are you guys forgetting that they just said this not long ago?

 

Or that they have a blaze double rifle in the game?  I think you guys are sorta being overly dramatic to say we won't be seeing any "obscure" weapons.

 

Errr, nobody said we won't be seeing "obscure" weapons. We were responding to the fact that Torchia wasn't interested in adding weapons with rare/specific calibers. The Longhorn is supposedly firing 7.62x51 as it is already in-game, and the Thompson Center Encore can be chambered in .308/7.62x51.

 

The B95 can be chambered for .308/7.62x51 as well.

 

The VSS is exclusively chambered in 9x39.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Katana67

[OrLoK 16182]

Hello there

 

Im, just throwing this out there and its no way on the cards AFAIK, but it just popped into my mind.

 

But if "exotic" weapons used their nearest common counterpart would that be an issue to you or perfectly acceptable.

 

Ie a Eastern Bloc SMG using "standard" 9mm? Or AN Other Assault rifle using 7.62?

 

Or for example "generalising" all types of shotgun shell to just buck/slug/pellet?

 

Would that be an issue?

 

Would it be an issue if it meant more weapon diversity?

 

This is purely from MY brain its nothing ive discussed with the devs for example.

 

Rgds

 

LoK 

[Katana67 2907]

Would that be an issue?

 

Would it be an issue if it meant more weapon diversity?

 

It wouldn't be an issue to me, although I suspect some of the "realism" folks would lose their minds. I sort of think this is the way they're going already, with 7.62 being used in the B95 and Mosin interchangeably.

 

But, I actually think a diverse ammunition profile would be beneficial to gameplay. That way one couldn't just use generic "7.62" in everything from a Longhorn, to a B95, to a Mosin, to a FAL, to an SVD, to an M40, to a PKM, to an M240. It's pretty satisfying to find the specific mag/ammo combination for your weapon in the mod.

 

Would I mind if weapons just used generic non-specific cartridges? No. But I think it would be better from a rarity point of view to actually have specific cartridges.

 

However, the degree to which weapons have specific calibers is pretty negligible. I mean, most of the weapons I want use calibers that are already represented in DayZ. So either way, doesn't really matter to me. But I think, oddly enough, that it sort of marginalizes a lot of Warsaw Pact weaponry which use less common or purpose-built cartridges.

 

I think it should be divided up into two halves, each with its own counterpart. The [X]'s signify a caliber which is already included in DayZ.

 

Uncommon-Rare (NATO)

- .45 ACP [X]

- 9x19mm [X]

- 5.56x45 [X]

- 7.62x51 [X]

- .338 LM

- .50 BMG

 

Common-Uncommon (Warsaw Pact)

- ???

- 9x18 Makarov

- 5.45x39/7.62x39 [X?]

- 7.62x54R

- ???

- 12.7x108

 

This is just a rough outline.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Katana67

[Bororm 1156]

I guess this is a hint that we will not be seeing any obscure weapons in the future.

 

But for the foreseeable future, this appears to be what we're going to be living with (i.e. common weapons with common cartridges).

 

 

Ok, you didn't use the word obscure yourself Katana, but you implied all we will see is "common weapons" in the foreseeable future and I don't think there's anything overly common about the Blaze or incoming Longhorn.  

 

 

Any ways, as I said I see where you're coming from and I pretty much agree, but I think we will see some of these guns added down the line so I don't see much sense worrying about it now.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Bororm

[Katana67 2907]

Ok, you didn't use the word obscure yourself Katana, but you implied all we will see is "common weapons" in the foreseeable future and I don't think there's anything overly common about the Blaze or incoming Longhorn.  

 

Any ways, as I said I see where you're coming from and I pretty much agree, but I think we will see some of these guns added down the line so I don't see much sense worrying about it now.

 

You're forgetting where I said "common weapons with common cartridges," which is what is being discussed. That was one thought, it wasn't "common weapons AND common cartridges."

 

The relationship of a cartridge to a weapon, in terms of rarity. Not solely the commonality of the weapon itself is what is being discussed here.

 

Both the Blaser B95 (Blazer 95) and Longhorn (Thompson Center Encore) can be chambered in a variety of rounds, including rounds which are common (i.e. .308 Winchester).

 

The VSS cannot, it is chambered in the near-proprietary 9x39.

 

Hence why we're not talking about obscure weapons, but weapons that use "obscure" calibers.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Katana67