Ultra realism Vs Balanced game design

[kermo50 31]

DayZ: Ultra realism Vs Balanced game design... 

 

This seems to be a conman theme in a lot of threads, arguments that are based on realism or ones for a balanced more enjoyable, fun game. Thought it would make a good poll. 

 

What do you guys think?

Edited January 8, 2014 by kermo50

[soulfirez 901]

Your probably thinking i am a realisim nut but you cant actually make a game all that realistic ( even rocket said he cant make it realistic but he can make authentic)

 

The game should be made as realistic(authentic) as possible without completely forgeting or sacrificing the fact its a game (but i lean more to realistic within the limitations and balance of the game...

[Death_Dealer 3155]

Ultra realism would be incredibly boring

 

Basically increase the time and complexity of tasks by 10 

[wgaf 251]

"balance" is the ugliest word in the English language when applied to video games. 

 

It has no place at all being applied to something like DayZ, which specifically aspires to be something different. 

[X_Busa 12]

I hope the shooting system will be ULTRA ULTRA realistic. I would hate a lot an arcade system.

[RelativeBlue 53]

I like my zombies real as can be. Without being real.

[Imbalanxd 59]

What does balance even mean in a game like DayZ?

 

If one player has a screwdriver, while another has nothing, is that not imbalanced?

If one weapon is incredibly powerful, but all players have the potential to acquire the weapon, is that not balanced?

 

The common saying is "gameplay over realism", and it still applies here. If realism ruins gameplay, then you get rid of that realism.

[kermo50 31]

"balance" is the ugliest word in the English language when applied to video games. 

 

It has no place at all being applied to something like DayZ, which specifically aspires to be something different. 

 

Haha yeah I know what you mean, I couldn't think of another way to put it though... Still I think that people understand what I am trying to get at here.

[Redwolf (DayZ) 125]

As long as I don't have to take a shit after my beans, I'm ok with anything.

[Imbalanxd 59]

Its also worth noting that nothing is particularly realistic about DayZ

[wgaf 251]

As long as I don't have to take a shit after my beans, I'm ok with anything.

 

Oh but you should, and hopefully will. 

[gibonez 3633]

Ultra realism is balanced.

 

The problem is if they go to this approach every single aspect must be ultra realistic.

 

Everything from

 

-Bullet ballistics with realistic elevation and wind adjustments

-Realistic wounds from zombie bites and gun shots

-Realistic thirst and hunger

-realistic stamina and carrying weight.

 

Every single aspect must feel the same and then the game will shine.

[soulfirez 901]

"balance" is the ugliest word in the English language when applied to video games. 

 

It has no place at all being applied to something like DayZ, which specifically aspires to be something different. 

 

 

What does balance even mean in a game like DayZ?

 

If one player has a screwdriver, while another has nothing, is that not imbalanced?

If one weapon is incredibly powerful, but all players have the potential to acquire the weapon, is that not balanced?

 

The common saying is "gameplay over realism", and it still applies here. If realism ruins gameplay, then you get rid of that realism.

so you guys dont want melee weapons balanced to be slightly more realistic (balance doesnt mean to make it fair try being a bit more broad open minded in how a word like balance is used and needed in video game ah the logic of things. Cause the balance on weapons (specially the melee is not quite right or realistic just yet an axe should do far more damage than a baseball bat but it shouldnt take me 20 hits with a bat to knock you out and just 1 lucky one with my fists if we talking realisim here no one is talking about making the game FAIR!!!

Edited January 8, 2014 by SoulFirez

[Roshi (DayZ) 396]

Gotta say - this poll is pretty skewed - ultra realism on one (far flung extreme) to the other being 'less based in realism...' as the other (close to center) extreme. Makes it hard not to go for 'somewhere in between', even if you are heavily towards the zombie/survival simulator end of the spectrum. I'm leaning towards the 'simulate as much as possible and bring in elements of reality that are interesting, practical and challenging, and don't do stuff just because that's how other games do it" approach.

[kermo50 31]

Gotta say - this poll is pretty skewed - ultra realism on one (far flung extreme) to the other being 'less based in realism...' as the other (close to center) extreme. Makes it hard not to go for 'somewhere in between', even if you are heavily towards the zombie/survival simulator end of the spectrum. I'm leaning towards the 'simulate as much as possible and bring in elements of reality that are interesting, practical and challenging, and don't do stuff just because that's how other games do it" approach.

 

Agreed I will add another option.

[Imbalanxd 59]

so you guys dont want melee weapons balanced to be slightly more realistic (balance doesnt mean to make it fair try being a bit more broad open minded in how a word like balance is used and needed in video game ah the logic of things. Cause the balance on weapons (specially the melee is not quite right or realistic just yet an axe should do far more damage than a baseball bat but it shouldnt take me 20 hits with a bat to knock you out and just 1 lucky one with my fists if we talking realisim here no one is talking about making the game FAIR!!!

 

Everything you just said pertains to realism, not balance. They aren't the same thing. If they were then this poll would make even less sense because we would be voting between the same options.

 

If you can give me a clear, concise definition of what you perceive "balance" to be in a computer game, then maybe I can try to be "more broad open minded". Until then, you aren't making all that much sense to me.

[tommes 331]

Everything has to be plausible. Realism helps plausibility greatly.

[soulfirez 901]

Everything you just said pertains to realism, not balance. They aren't the same thing. If they were then this poll would make even less sense because we would be voting between the same options.

 

If you can give me a clear, concise definition of what you perceive "balance" to be in a computer game, then maybe I can try to be "more broad open minded". Until then, you aren't making all that much sense to me.

If you cant understand what i mean by balance by my second statement ( ill give you my first one was a little to vague) then without trying to insult your intelliegence there is little point on me explaining further (balancing of features damages to make them more realistic as in my example with weapons balancing of the amount of loot , loot types. balancing the level of loot players vs zombies when they have optimised the best they can (as they are trying to do now) you know all those things devs do to make the game the experience they intend not what overly  chest thumping fanboys say the game is

[gray-z@hotmail.co.uk 84]

I'm all for as real as possible but like others have said, within reason.

 

For example, weapon maintenance. Now I would like to see something along the lines of reliability tables where a weapon will function flawlessly (or not) depending on how you look after it. Now lets throw the idea of a basic Field strip and clean. Requirements - Screwdriver, Pliers, Oil (now oil doesn't exist in the game yet but I'm sure it could be added without insane levels of coding) and Rags.

 

Simply have these items in your inventory and right click weapon, select clean weapon. Animation (nothing fancy), time taken - 3 minutes. And that's good for an Infantry soldier so as a Civ it could take an age but let's keep it reasonable.

 

Now that to me is adding realism and simulation without being 'Ultra realistic' which would take massive amounts of coding, artwork and animation involving a 1st person perspective to look at the weapon, grab screwdriver, pop pins, extract bolt etc etc. That is ultra realistic but then that would ruin the game for a lot of people. I really wouldn't mind it but final release would probably be 5 years away if they went down that route.

 

Now that's one example. Next, as I've said in a different post, if heli's were introduced then I'd expect no less than a full simulation (Taken from ToH) requiring a comprehensive start up and shut down procedure and max difficulty meaning absolutely no prompts or aids. This adds ultra realism and means that there will be very few who can perform such a task making those who can a valuable team member. As I said in the other post, you want to fly, you better have the training.

 

Now I know that I'm basically contradicting myself here but in my twisted mind these are two completely different scenarios where one is easily performed by anyone and is an absolute vital part of the game and survival and the other is a valuable skill that will take time and effort to appropriately master to separate yourself from the masses and give you something to brag about, a feeling of accomplishment, total immersion and value for money satisfaction. (Yes, twisted mind indeed  ;) )

 

As the poll is just now I can't vote as the options are too far apart and at the end of the day it comes down to individual perspective and what one mans balance (dirty word in gaming) is another mans gamebreaker  :blush:

 

EDIT:Saw you added another option  :thumbsup:

Edited January 8, 2014 by G24HAM

[Imbalanxd 59]

If you cant understand what i mean by balance by my second statement ( ill give you my first one was a little to vague) then without trying to insult your intelliegence there is little point on me explaining further (balancing of features damages to make them more realistic as in my example with weapons balancing of the amount of loot , loot types. balancing the level of loot players vs zombies when they have optimised the best they can (as they are trying to do now) you know all those things devs do to make the game the experience they intend not what overly  chest thumping fanboys say the game is

 

Ye, you still haven't given a clear concise definition of what you think balance is. You just keep rattling off non sensical examples and then throwing the world balance in as if it brings the idea together. It doesn't.

The word balance implies two forces acting against each other. Start with that and expand with how that fits into your concept of balance in games.

 

For example, my perception of balance involves separate systems acting against each other. In a game like counter strike, the seperate systems involve only the different players in a game. In a single player game, it would involve the player against the NPCs. In DayZ, it is both. However, there is no "balance" between something like loot spawns and zombies, because they encompass the same system; the environment.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Imbalanxd

[soulfirez 901]

Ye, you still haven't given a clear concise definition of what you think balance is. You just keep rattling off non sensical examples and then throwing the world balance in as if it makes sense.

Sorry i am not a teacher i dont have the time to spend 4 years in uni so i can competently explain to someone (who i merely believe to be playing stupid to get a bite out of me lol and i bite to easily a flaw of mine) But the gist of it is there is more than one meaning to balance and the gentlemen i replied to assumed by balance that meant make the game fair... Now if you would like to phone me we can have a long discussion of the term balance (and its many meanings because if you believe it only has one cleary your iq is somewhere below the 90 mark ,then we can discuss how the term relates in the making of a video game..

[Mos1ey 6301]

At the end of the day a forum poll doesn't really make a difference, Rocket's "vision" was that of a survival simulator or "anti-game" and it's kind of his game.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Mos1ey

[twingunz 308]

yeah i lean towards realistic as to me the simulation aspect is what separates dayz from the masses of copy-cat games and the competitors tend to focus on balance / gameplay where as dayz's specialness is in the fact it is based on reality which is what makes it interesting to me and even though dayz doesn't typically lean towards focusing so much on gameplay i'd still say dayz is still the king of open world zombie games and i feel it is because it is unique.

Focusing too much on gameplay i personally feel would remove that specialness of dayz.

[kermo50 31]

Ye, you still haven't given a clear concise definition of what you think balance is. You just keep rattling off non sensical examples and then throwing the world balance in as if it makes sense.

 

Here is my attempt to give one example sacrificing realism for balance.

 

Ok at the moment there are 3 bags available in the standalone, a small brightly colored civilian backpack (smallest), a large colored hikers pack (largest), and a hunters backpack which is earthy colored (medium). The lets leave the first bag out as it arguably the least desirable bright, stands out and has the least room.  The between the other two bags you get a choice one is larger and the other is more camouflaged...

Now I would argue that realistically you would be able to find a military bag just as large and being camouflaged in military area's however this is not in the game to give a choice and some balance to gameplay leaving a best bag out of options.

Edited January 8, 2014 by kermo50

[Mos1ey 6301]

Here is my attempt to give one example sacrificing realism for balance.

 

Ok at the moment there are 3 bags available in the standalone, a small brightly colored civilian backpack (smallest), a large colored hikers pack (largest), and a hunters backpack which is earthy colored (medium). The lets leave the first bag out as it arguably the least desirable bright, stands out and has the least room.  The between the other two bags you get a choice one is larger and the other is more camouflaged...

Now I would argue that realistically you could argue that you would be able to find a military bag just as large and being camouflaged in military area's however this is not in the game to give a choice and some balance to gameplay leaving a best bag out of options.

 

In all honesty I think the backpacks are limited as they are because others are yet to be added... We had about 10 different kinds in the mod.