Aim in Standalone

[the1freeMan (DayZ) 10]

Aiming in pc games... maybe some console players do not understand much about it, and casual gamers.. well are just too "casual" to care. But pc gamers, as in people who have been playing pc fps games before the cod era, even the avarage ones, have spent at least a little time understanding how to use your settings to have more consistent control of your character through your interface device,  that being the mouse.

 

Arma 2 TRIED to emulate "realistic" (omg cuss word!) weapon handling by adding ENORMOUS amounts of both negative and positive acceleration, based on the fact that your character has limited body turning speed. And the Y axis purposely lagging in proportion to the weapon's weight.

 

This makes mouse movement inconsistent as moving the same distance on the pad (desk for some users) with slight differences in speed will never correspond to the same distance in game.

If you play only dayz you might get used to it, I got hackusated of aimbotting a couple times when drag shooting headshots on drivers in moving cars in some periods, but if you play multiple games getting used to arma2 aim again is hell. Worst of all you don't learn aiming skills useful in other games, and other fps's aim will be to little use in arma2 just creating pointless stress on the user.

 

I don't want to see guys saying stuff like "cod players trying to play dayz". More than half cod players don't know what acceleration is.

 

With dayz having 6000+ servers the amount of players who have no idea of how controlling a camera with a mouse in a pc game should be like is high and that worries me for the future. So I'm here, not to hate but to ALARM people who haven't noticed yet.

 

The fact is that realism and games often don't work well together, even if it's a military simulator. Why? Because you are controlling you entire body with some pieces of plastic under your hands, and your perception of the world is based on a flat screen monitor and some speakers.

We appreciate you tried Bohemia (not really), but we all saw it FAIL and that is why Arma 3 does not have these.. "features".

 

Mouse movement should respect your hand movement and be less processed as possible (apart from scaling) to give a natural feel of controlling your digital alter ego.

 

AIM IN THE  STANDALONE MUST BE LIKE ARMA 3! Or simply not altered like arma2. MAKING THE STANDALONE WITH ARMA2 AIM WOULD BE JUST LAZY PROGRAMMING, IT WOULD TOTALLY RUIN THE GAME THAT WOULD DESERVE NOT TO BE BOUGHT OR PLAYED.

Edited November 27, 2013 by the1freeMan

[mzltv 2281]

[weparo 613]

I acctually read it, but what ever.

 

Simply said, if you don't like dayz's aiming, don't play it. Dean aswell as bohemia had a vision when they started creating games. If your idea of their vision doesn't match with theirs, either develop your own game, or just don't play it. Also SA isn't a shooter, nor a FPS.

 

 

Weparo out

[the1freeMan (DayZ) 10]

Fun video, thanks. You mean it's confirmed that the standalone doesn't have messed up mouse input?

 

EDIT:

 

@Weparo Oh ok I see. it's not about FPS games, but controlling virtual characters. Arma 3 is done different from arma2 for that reason. If you are bad at controlling your mouse, a game should not compensate for it not letting people develop muscle memory. The game is about surviving, and not being able to control your gun properly is not a part of it. Guns are there to defend what you've accomplished surviving. Balancing gameplay doesn't mean having a bad control system. 

 

People with decent mouse handling skills can understand this, but you defend your lacks with a weak argumentation. What if Dean Hall actually thinks that arma3 aim is better, has he spoken about it clearly yet?

As I said I won't play it IF it has arma 2 aim and yes if you are interested I am starting a cryengine project with some friends, but as you might know developing a game is neither fast nor easy, it is our first project and it's more to see what comes out. Can't put that on the same level of rocket's work with the SA, maybe in a couple years I will be able to think that way, maybe we fail miserably. Who knows, that's not the point though.

 

Anybody heard Rocket talk about this topic?

Edited November 26, 2013 by the1freeMan

[Korsbaek 1778]

Fun video, thanks. You mean it's confirmed that the standalone doesn't have messed up mouse input?

 

We. Don't. Know...

 

(Or at least I don't know)

[Wayze 549]

Negative mouse acceleration has been removed as far as I know. Was discussed before june and I recall Dean saying that they clearly see the problem and have fixed it. Like the FOV slider...

 

However, I hope your hand will shake as f*ck while aiming. You don't need negative mouse acceleration, just a realistic shake. The longer you aim the less you shake (to a certain point where the negativ effect occurs). After a long run you shake even more. All of these things are already implemented in arma, but it is just not enough. We are no soldiers in the SA, so we should even shake more, even less controll over the aim. This is something that, in my opinion, the character should learn while he is doing it. The more you shoot, the more you aim, the better you get in it. Simple as that. This is how life goes.

 

But many people do not like that kind of system. I don't know why, it is authentic as hell and and clearly adds a missing core element to the game. Afterall, what is a character worth to you if he is no different to the one you will have after death?

[enforcer1975 1111]

Get a gamepad if you want a console feel. Only because ArmA 3 feels different doesn't mean it's better. Imo ArmA 3 doesn't give your weapon weight.

[the1freeMan (DayZ) 10]

Get a gamepad if you want a console feel. Only because ArmA 3 feels different doesn't mean it's better. Imo ArmA 3 doesn't give your weapon weight.

Did you even understand one word I wrote, or read more than one line? I should report this as spam..

 

@Wayze      I'm ok with sway and fatigue, but leveling characters in a game like dayz should be approached cautiously. Having your character grow stronger and less subject to fatigue I think makes sense.

                    Arma 2 sway I think is pretty good. A little tweaking I might like, but nothing too drastic.

 

People can gun you down in real life, and if they spent more time training with firearms than you they will most likely be better at it.  If an apocalypse came down now, some people would be already used to handling guns, others will have to learn during their survival (me included), or die. Life's a bitch, specially during a zombie apocalypse ;)

 

Videogame wise I believe I've already treated this extensively enough n the OP, but still we have people suggesting controllers... sigh  

 

Good to know Dean Hall talked about the neg accel PROBLEM.

[Aporis 422]

You can turn of that smoothing, which i did the very beginning. You can turn it off in DayZ too I think, well. To be exact I don't even know if there is Arma 2 or Arma 3 handling, maybe they made their own. We just need to wait and find out.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

We. Don't. Know...

 

(Or at least I don't know)

It's going to be* removed.

[Beck (DayZ) 1768]

You can turn of that smoothing, which i did the very beginning.

^Yes.

[Mos1ey 6301]

You can turn of that smoothing, which i did the very beginning. You can turn it off in DayZ too I think, well. To be exact I don't even know if there is Arma 2 or Arma 3 handling, maybe they made their own. We just need to wait and find out.

 

Smoothing and negative mouse acceleration are not the same thing.

 

I'm a low sensitivity player. I have a 44cm wide mousepad and moving my mouse in a steady motion across my pad equates to me turning 180 degrees. If I make the same movement as fast as I can I'll turn less than 90 degrees. That is negative mouse acceleration and if you've built muscle memory in other games then it can take a long time to get used to. It's there to stop you being able to twitch aim like you can in Counter-Strike.

 

Personally, I quite like it in ArmA II though. Once you get used to moving your mouse at the same speed every time you barely even notice it and it definitely makes the game feel more authentic.

[joe_mcentire 2073]

off topic:

 

 

- no relevance -

why you have new name?!

Edited November 26, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[the1freeMan (DayZ) 10]

Thank you for posting Mos1ey.

 

As much as I agree it feels authentic and is well thought (on a theoretical level), I believe something like that doesn't fit the pc gaming world. There have been periods of time when I would play only dayz for monthes, and I did get very used to it. Playing the same game for 3 months straight is an extreme case scenario though.

 

On top of that this system still has a big limitations for close range combat (somewhat popular in the dayz mod), just think of how unnaturally difficult it is to hit a zigzagging target a close (or even long) range. Player movement system lets them change direction quickly but mouse input is limited and obstacles quick enough corrections. Because of that lot's of close range firefights play out in a very unrealistic fashion

 

Arma 3 doesn't really have twitch shooter mechanics, moving your mouse fast more than a certain (small) distance will make the gun inaccurate (since repositioning the whole body), kind of like in Heroes & Generals. Loosing accuracy: OK; messing with my mouse movement: BAD.

Twitch mechanics really work only in extreme close range fights because of the accuracy loss and the sway when moving. This actually resolves arma2's cqb randomness problem. 

[mercules 1290]

If you are bad at controlling your mouse, a game should not compensate for it not letting people develop muscle memory. 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

 

Mayhaps it is your lack of adaptability to various games that is the "bad"? Honestly, don't automatically jump to calling other players bad players if they don't agree with your premises, it's entirely possible they are just as skilled but a little more open minded or intelligent than yourself. The design was set up in ARMA II to prevent changing your mouse DPI and spinning in 360s with a twitch of the mouse, it accomplishes that but at the cost of some other things.

As stated it is unlikely it will be in the SA. DayZ is still not a twitch shooter and never should be. 

 

[AnarchyBrownies 1383]

But pc gamers, as in people who have been playing pc fps games before the cod era

 

 

 

I got hackusated of aimbotting a couple times when drag shooting headshots on drivers in moving cars in some periods

 

 

 

With dayz having 6000+ servers the amount of players who have no idea of how controlling a camera with a mouse in a pc game should be like

 

 

 

We appreciate you tried Bohemia (not really), but we all saw it FAIL

 

 

 

MAKING THE STANDALONE WITH ARMA2 AIM WOULD BE JUST LAZY PROGRAMMING, IT WOULD TOTALLY RUIN THE GAME THAT WOULD DESERVE NOT TO BE BOUGHT OR PLAYED.

 

 

 

People with decent mouse handling skills can understand this, but you defend your lacks with a weak argumentation.

 

 

 

Did you even understand one word I wrote, or read more than one line? I should report this as spam..

 

 

 

If you are bad at controlling your mouse, a game should not compensate for it not letting people develop muscle memory.

^Almost forgot that one. Thanks, Mercules!

 

Okay, we get it you're a PC gaming god.

 

I'm not going to say you don't have a point because this seems to be something worth addressing (and apparently it already has been addressed). But do you understand how condescending and arrogant you sound? Your tone for most of the first couple posts seems to be more about you telling people they are inferior PC gamers who couldn't possibly understand how important this is to the experienced skilled players like yourself. That would perhaps explain why people may not have gotten through the OP.

 

JUST A THOUGHT.

Edited November 26, 2013 by AnarchyBrownies

[Karmaterror 982]

Ok hope I got this right....neg mouse accel is slowing the speed of toon rotation if the mouse is moved quickly?

 

If that's right then I say leave it in. I love the arma 2 engine and little things like that are (to me) what defines it from every other shooter where you can swing round 720 degrees in one swift mouse movement. That so unrealistic, but it seems to be what people expect these days. Guns aren't light, so moving one around isn't something that can be done in a split second.

 

Maybe a scaled system where lighter guns have a smaller amount of this acceleration and hevier guns more so. But it should be there, having to react to not just the behaviour of the gun, but its effect on your movement (which there would be irl) is how it should be. Maybe that could also stop people using snipers in CQC instead of making non bolt action rifles have the reload time, per round, of a bolt action.

[-Gews- 7443]

For what it's worth Dslyecxi prefers mouse control as it exists in ArmA 3. Anyways on the one side I want my cursor to be an extension of my hand, on the other side no one should be making 180 degree Quake-style twitch shots with a 10 lb rifle while jumping over a fence.

[harley001 315]

1. Its in the suggestions, yet I barley see a suggestion on how to improve the aim.  Just talking about how the aim is bad. 

 

2. I think the aim is fine, I never have problems.  I have problems with the movement system more the aiming system.  The aiming system seems to be like most other FPS.  Sensitivity and FOV is off but you can fix that with settings.  The player turns around slowly in Arma because that's realistic.  

 

3. You went into the cod stereotype about 3 times.  Saying the that all COD gamers are noobs and don't do jack and just run and gun.  As someone who barley plays cod but knows a lot about the playerbase...  You are very, very wrong. Good Cod players customize their aiming layouts A LOT!  Sure average cod players just play it the way it is, but so do all the average players on other average games.  Can we stop using cod to try and say people are stupid?  The using cod as your punching bag thing was old since black ops.        

 

4.  You're acting like you are the PC master race.   

Edited November 27, 2013 by harley001

[the1freeMan (DayZ) 10]

 

Oh we got a smart ass here. Too bad changing DPI still does make your 360s faster, this game almost suggests on-the-fly switching between two different sensitivities between aiming and not. Their neg accel just penalizes fast hand movements that in close range do serve for more authentic gameplay, it's not just a matter of counts/second. Before hypothesizing a lack of open mind and intelligence of somebody you should assure you're not speaking out of ignorance.

Btw I repeat Arma3 loses accuracy on fast mouse swipes, it's not a twitch shooter (the whole engine isn't really thought for that). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes I understand I might sound arrogant, there is a reason for it. Without patronizing some points the thread would have been flooded with ignorance, like a couple examples by the guy who suggested a controller, or the guy who said turn off mouse smoothing. I find talking about things you don't know, with that tone, to people who evidently know more about it to be one of the worst forms of arrogance.

 

I don't really feel like I did something wrong by answering a little rudely to some one who says "if you don't like don't play, bohemia has an idea..." when I'm worrying for the future of this game, and Dean Hall him self addressed the topic as an issue. He even liked that post, maybe he just understood that I'm concerned and care a lot about this game/mod

 

The cod example was just an other attempt to contain useless posts, btw I recently replayed MOHAA and COD1 one after another on max difficulty, I'm still shocked about how blatantly COD lowered the skill ceiling of the genre.

 

I've got to say the ratio of useless/useful posts has come out pretty functional.

 

Getting called aimbotter should not sound new to an experienced gamer. I'm not trying to sound like a pc god, just an informed and dedicated pc gamer , when dayz if full of console players and casual gamers. That is a fact.

 

I am trying to limit the discussion part to experienced gamers, leaving people who come across terms such as neg accel for the first time with an educated read, and some key concepts to research. Not a thread full of useless posts and questions to filter through.

 

I see how some people would rather choose the immersion factor of not being able to turn quickly (again raising dpi mitigates A LOT), but other than the "realistic" feel there is no functionality to this interface wise. Remember that mouse and keyboard (and gamepad -.-) are still simplified interface devices, you control the movement normally done by many muscles with just a few, yet to this they apply full body laws. Arma3 system may not be "perfect" or as authentic, but it's more natural muscle wise.

Not that it wasn't worth the attempt, but I'm happy to see and hear that BIS and Dean Hall came to my same conclusion.

 

Hate me all you want, I got my answer and if just one person goggled about mouse accel, smoothing, mouse response, (even just to see if that arrogant as.shole knows what he's talking about), or simply learned something thanks to this thread, I'm happy with it.  

 

btw cod has been a punch bag from way before Blackops ;)

Edited November 27, 2013 by the1freeMan

[AP_Norris 1017]

Ok hope I got this right....neg mouse accel is slowing the speed of toon rotation if the mouse is moved quickly?

 

If that's right then I say leave it in. I love the arma 2 engine and little things like that are (to me) what defines it from every other shooter where you can swing round 720 degrees in one swift mouse movement. That so unrealistic, but it seems to be what people expect these days. Guns aren't light, so moving one around isn't something that can be done in a split second.

 

Maybe a scaled system where lighter guns have a smaller amount of this acceleration and hevier guns more so. But it should be there, having to react to not just the behaviour of the gun, but its effect on your movement (which there would be irl) is how it should be. Maybe that could also stop people using snipers in CQC instead of making non bolt action rifles have the reload time, per round, of a bolt action.

If I could suggest momentum of heavier guns? I was thinking what would probably help a lot of people in CQC is probably slowing it down, so instead of giving that advantage to a lot of players just make sure it's still a lil bit harder for them.

Sorry for using battlefield as an example but when you swing your sniper it seems to rock with your hands as if it has weight, that along with the bullet actually coming out its physical barrel would be perfect.

I'd like to see some sensible movement cap, I'd hate to see DayZ become some sort of competitive FPS where spinning 180 degrees before an opponent can react is expected.

pSinning 90 degrees either side of your front should be reasonably fast, any further requires a new footing and should be a bit slower, I'd love to see that implemented with appropriate animations.

[the1freeMan (DayZ) 10]

I'd like to see some sensible movement cap, I'd hate to see DayZ become some sort of competitive FPS where spinning 180 degrees before an opponent can react is expected.

pSinning 90 degrees either side of your front should be reasonably fast, any further requires a new footing and should be a bit slower, I'd love to see that implemented with appropriate animations.

 

Have you tried using Aiming deadzone, what is your opinion of it? (game options near head bob)

I think it's rather to laggy in arma2, arma 3 seems ok. Although at the moment I prefer without it, it does feel like it could be put to use for FASTER and MORE ACCURATE snap shots within your field of view

 

I do also want to point out that perception and awareness of your surroundings in a game, through screen and speakers, will always be inferior to real life. Controls have to take that into account.

Edited November 27, 2013 by the1freeMan

[-Gews- 7443]

Have you tried using Aiming deadzone, what is your opinion of it? (game options near head bob)

 

Horrific

 

If you want to be still while aiming just hold alt so your entire body doesn't spin around and give the game away, achieves the same thing

[the1freeMan (DayZ) 10]

 

Horrific

 

If you want to be still while aiming just hold alt so your entire body doesn't spin around and give the game away, achieves the same thing

 

 

Alt is used to turn your head an leave body, arms and gun still. Deadzone moves your torso and gun/point of aim leaving your legs still. 

 

In arma 2 this actually makes the front sight lag behind, and you can actually snap shoot more actually without it.

 

Arma 3 doesn't lag and keeps the same sensitivity/turning speed when reaching the limit and moving the body around, just looses lots of accuracy.

Edited November 27, 2013 by the1freeMan

[Karmaterror 982]

Alt will move ya gun when scoped without moving the body, its just a limited cone of vision that you can move within. If neg mouse accel dosent effect that then I would say the engine has perfect balance, when not aiming you will turn slower, when aiming you can have your snappy movements by using alt.

 

It is not realistic to be able to spin a gun around even just 180 as fast as we can on common fps games. I really like this feature of the arma engine....even though I will admit I only learnt about it today, from this topic. But after going in game and seeing whats going on I gotta say I think most shooters should have this added as a feature. Adds to immersion, and lets not forget arma/daayz are tactical games. Each ambush should be planned and thought out so that snappy movements aren't required.

 

But what if I get snuck up on and want to spin round in a split second to pop the guy behind me.....that is as far from reality as possible. If someone sneaks up on you it is going to take longer that 1 sec to level the gun at them. This isn't a "for the masses" easy to pick up and use FPS. Its a simulator, and I strongly feel this feature should stay :P