[Standalone] Suggestion for humanity indicator

[Ralfie 26]

Hello everyone, you may call me Ralfie and this is my first post here on the forums :D

TLDR:

This thread is about a theoretical implementation of new humanity indicators in the coming standalone (SA) version of DayZ.

This is due to the fact that players will be able to freely customize their clothing in SA, thus making the bandit skin system obsolete.

My solution is therefore to create distinct player stances and animations based on their current humanity.

Obstacles in the implementation is more work in the form of skeletal animation, which again crates obstacles with clipping objects and so on.

Proof of concept, consider the following:

The Hostile Player

My theory is that a person accustomed to taking shots at people will change his stance over time to gain better balance; he wants to kill, and to make sure his victim dies he often shoots more than once. DAKKA DAKKA!

His way of moving might also seem more confrontative as aggressiveness has become his primary method of interacting with his environment; be that with stealth or head on confrontation, he is relentless in his pursuit of blood.

To a certain degree he might even become so fearless that his posture might seem cocky to others, holding his rifle over the shoulder, and possibly getting accustomed to shooting pistols with one hand.

The Peaceful Player

A person who refrains from killing innocents would normally be more considerate when taking shots, and his posture would therefore reflect this with a more calm and collected stance to gain the most steady shot possible.

When idle or on the move he displays a high degree of discipline (yeah trigger-discipline! :D), his posture emanates courage and always seems to stand at attention even if not conscious about it himself.

Weapons are held straight to make sure not to miss innocent bystanders.

This is all purely cosmetic and should not change gameplay!

Scale

Most important, this is not a set in stone dichotomy between good and bad, the former examples should be viewed as polar opposites on a large scale of player animations, which will prove more of a mental challenge to the player when trying to identify someone.

Here some extra frontal mug shots of survivors of varying degrees of hostility ^^

Immersion:

This takes me to another of my interests; roleplaying games.

I have long had an interest in online computer roleplaying games*, where emotes and chat filtering could be used to create the impression of a certain character.

Roleplaying for me is not just about killing monsters and getting loot - its more about immersing myself in a fictional person and play by his rules; may that be his various driving forces, morals (or lack thereof), mentality, religion etc. etc.

And trust me roleplayers make a game so much better (funnier at least :D), much more than the abundant min-maxing powergamers that try to isolate every variable.

Remember this game was never intended to give you hard numbers on your blood level, humanity, how many HP a steak gives or how high DPS your rifle is; meta-gaming ruins immersion.

And this leaves me at the beginning; the implementation of character expression.

I think it could bring so much more to the table than just a pointer to someones humanity rating.

Realism

It is hard to argue how this would make a game more realistic or not, I chose to use the term immersive.

I am a firm believer in that we humans always communicate our current internal state to the outside world via. various forms of display.

Ask yourself this, why has there been introduced a rapid and quite panicked breathing when in the vicinity of zombies in DayZ? Well because your character is supposed to be afraid in these highly Kafkaesque situations, and it would be natural to fear death slowly creeping up on you.

This is also the reason behind me wanting more body language in a game where hearing has become the primary modality of interaction.

In nonverbal communication sight is the predominant way of getting information of the subjects intent, and I believe that introducing these animations will increase social interaction besides looking at people through a scope.

I believe that these psychological aspects would synergize with the horror elements and make the game more menacing, horror for me has nothing to do with physical torment even tho I prefer lots of blood and guts. If you are a zombie aficionado you will understand :).

Obstacles

Well someone has to do it, and stuff takes time. I have no idea how much work it would take to make something like this but I imagine it is quite some work making new animations for models, I have tried it a bit sometime with md3 models I think LOL. Well that was the stoneage of 3d, perhaps there are more efficient ways of creating animations nowadays hrm? One can only dream :D

Some people seem to believe that humanity should be removed altogether, this I imagine is a (complicated) discussion outside of this thread.

Some argue that animations will make the game a team deathmatch game, even tho the bandit "team" keeps shooting each other.

I think good guys should stick together, and bandits should stick to being douchebags mean people.

Disclaimer

Please don't think that I am trying to pass judgement over what Dayz is and what it is not; only Rocket knows what DayZ is (I hope! :D) - I'm just sayin' that it could do good with a bit of "opaqueness" if thats a term :P.

This is my opinion, you are of course entitled to your own even if it may differ from mine, and I would like to hear any critique, this is after all a thought experiment and it has its flaws!

This is an idea I just came up with this evening, if someone else has already come up with something similar well kudos to you, we think alike! haha! (I searched a bit, nothing).

Oh and I stole all these pictures from some cheesy vector clipart website, so credits goes to them yeah...

~edit~ I also like to edit my posts and add more stuff so maybe I will keep on developing upon thought ~edit~

About me:

I am an avid fan of DayZ and have already gotten numerous unforgettable memories from this amazing (anti?) game.

What got me into this game is the dynamic gameplay that emerges from the interaction between players combined with an overly hostile environment.

Forgive me if I offend anyone with this comparison, but I feel like I met the anarchist brother to the overly capitalistic sibling known as EvE Online xD.

What made me stay in DayZ is the opportunity to take on various personas; I can be an altruistic samaritan helping others survive, or I can be a selfish highwayman to whom killing and stealing is second nature.

I enjoy roleplaying in online games primarely to fuck with people and have fun, I RPed a great deal in NWN2, SWG (pre CU for life! death to SOE!), LoTRO, Anarchy Online and Champions Online + a bit here and there :P

Edited January 28, 2013 by Ralfie

[DemonGroover 8836]

I like your idea better than a generic bandit skin which signifies humanity.

However, it still forces players into something they may or may not want. Surely some of the most evil players out there would prefer to look normal rather than broadcasting their intent to kill..

I think the problem stems from the fact that ingame, as in real ife, there isnt any way to gauge trustworthiness. Players should be able to customise their look anyway they want.

It is a tough one and perhaps your idea is in the right direction - body language could give you tips on whether a player is up to no good or not.

Anyway, welcome to the Forum.

[rolling 19]

I really like this idea, it could be a subtle and immersive way to give people at least some idea of another's alignment, without making it overly obvious. It would be even cooler if the character would gradually take on these stances (incrementally) so it wouldn't completely screw people who may have shot in self defense.

[Ralfie 26]

I like your idea better than a generic bandit skin which signifies humanity.

However, it still forces players into something they may or may not want. Surely some of the most evil players out there would prefer to look normal rather than broadcasting their intent to kill..

I think the problem stems from the fact that ingame, as in real ife, there isnt any way to gauge trustworthiness. Players should be able to customise their look anyway they want.

It is a tough one and perhaps your idea is in the right direction - body language could give you tips on whether a player is up to no good or not.

Anyway, welcome to the Forum.

I thought about this too but didnt write it down as it pretty much undermines the arguement :P

No two people are alike and I don't believe you should categorize people, but I still like the stereotypes from RPGs and believe it could be used, I especially like the alignment system from D&D ^^

I really like this idea, it could be a subtle and immersive way to give people at least some idea of another's alignment, without making it overly obvious. It would be even cooler if the character would gradually take on these stances (incrementally) so it wouldn't completely screw people who may have shot in self defense.

Yeah these two should be polar opposites with a lot of degrees inbetween or something like that.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Ralfie

[CreepySalad 108]

I really like your idea.

It's great.

But I believe that a humanity system period would ruin the game.

You're not supposed to know who to trust.

Still, unique and cool idea.

Maybe there's a way to fit it in the game?

[Ralfie 26]

I really like your idea.

It's great.

But I believe that a humanity system period would ruin the game.

You're not supposed to know who to trust.

Still, unique and cool idea.

Maybe there's a way to fit it in the game?

Maybe it could be done so subtle that you wouldn't notice it when people crouched or ran, only when standing up? IDK man its just a thought, and yeah I am totally in for subterfuge and deceit ;)

[DemonGroover 8836]

I do think that it would be nice to have very subtle visual clues. Something that isnt striking but upon closer investigation you think "Hang on a minute, something's not right with this guy!" Blood splotches on clothing i think have been mentioned by Rocket.

Rocket tried something similar with the bandit heartbeat sound but by the time you were close enough to hear it you were more often than not dead!

[Bribase 251]

A very interesting idea. It's going to take some finesse to get right though.

[Clumzy (DayZ) 377]

I agree with what other people have said, I'm not a big fan of the humanity system. Especially since so many people just KoS bandits without a second thought. Although, DemonGroover makes a good point, it could work if it's very subtle.

[colekern 1364]

This is one of the best humanity system ideas I've ever seen. I mean really. It takes most people months to come up with an idea as cool as this. You are now my favorite new guy.

I like your idea better than a generic bandit skin which signifies humanity.

However, it still forces players into something they may or may not want. Surely some of the most evil players out there would prefer to look normal rather than broadcasting their intent to kill..

I think the problem stems from the fact that ingame, as in real ife, there isnt any way to gauge trustworthiness. Players should be able to customise their look anyway they want.

It is a tough one and perhaps your idea is in the right direction - body language could give you tips on whether a player is up to no good or not.

Anyway, welcome to the Forum.

I think we could fix this.What if the animations were designed so that it would be difficult to tell them apart. An experienced player could kind of figure out their intentions, but a new one would a tough time figuring out what they're going to do.

[Tarkastio 38]

I like this. If it was used in unison with subtle variations between facial expressions, that'd be really quite cool.

[Ralfie 26]

This is one of the best humanity system ideas I've ever seen. I mean really. It takes most people months to come up with an idea as cool as this. You are now my favorite new guy.

Aw stop it you flatter me :3

But yes I am a firm believer in this idea myself or I wouldn't have posted it in the first place, and I think this is something I have always thought about when playing immersive games, it is only now that I try to formulate my thoughts.

[captainwaffles 41]

I think humanity should just be removed the only way to tell hero or bandit should be what you saw them do

[Ralfie 26]

I think humanity should just be removed the only way to tell hero or bandit should be what you saw them do

And reason is why? Seems pointless to me, might as well play Quake.

~edit~

Also removing any queues to humanity will make meta-gaming even more prevalent as you have to remember every individual or inquire about him/her over some teamspeak/ventrilo. Some people might in return find this too "intricate" and will therefore resort to shooting everything that moves, and then we got a Doom shooter with no special selling point besides a big map.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Ralfie

[CreepySalad 108]

And reason is why? Seems pointless to me, might as well play Quake.

Because it makes it TDM.

Having the ability to tell who's bad or good makes you kill accordingly.

That's not how this game is supposed to be.

[Ralfie 26]

Because it makes it TDM.

Having the ability to tell who's bad or good makes you kill accordingly.

That's not how this game is supposed to be.

Well there would be practically as many "teams" as there would be degrees between player movement behavior, and I think it would be difficult to identify each state as more are introduced. Also by making these animations less distinctive on the move will make you force players to stalk someone for a while to identify their state (when standing still or what not).

~edit~

Once you are an outlaw its dog eats dog, the bandit team isn't really a team since every one shoots each other on sight.

This bears much resemblance to the pvp flagging system used in MMOs such as Darkfall or Ultima Online, but in this game the bandit flag wont have any real repercussions since this game has a total lack of NPC interaction or safezones so you are free to do what you want.

But I guess you know what the game is supposed to be.

~edit~

I have noted your critique and have included it under my Obstacles point.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Ralfie

[GOD™ 2795]

My stupid brain cannot understand this one bit... :blink:

EDIT: nevermind.

Edited January 28, 2013 by GOD™

[Mos1ey 6301]

I actually really like this idea.

The game went to shit when the bandit skin was removed, it was literally DeathmatchZ, so I'm definitely all for having a humanity system in place, but the skins are a bit too obtrusive. This would be spot on if the change in stance was fairly subtle to the untrained eye and coupled with facial expressions.

[Ralfie 26]

My stupid brain cannot understand this one bit... :blink:

EDIT: nevermind.

By "stance" I mean the way it looks when you stand still (idling), I think the way your posture looks would reflect a bit of your personality.

By "animation" I mean the way it looks when you are in movement, every person has a specific way of moving about which again could give queues to their demeanor.

something like

ya know.

I actually really like this idea.

The game went to shit when the bandit skin was removed, it was literally DeathmatchZ, so I'm definitely all for having a humanity system in place, but the skins are a bit too obtrusive. This would be spot on if the change in stance was fairly subtle to the untrained eye and coupled with facial expressions.

I remember when skins were removed I pretty much isolated myself from any interaction with strangers. There has to be a kind of humanity system IMO, no question.

Now I play on DayZ+ and have already met a dozen friendlies and I always enjoy to chat a bit with them before moving on, I get more of a kick helping strangers than shooting them ^^

[Hoj0 (DayZ) 31]

I like your idea better than a generic bandit skin which signifies humanity.

However, it still forces players into something they may or may not want. Surely some of the most evil players out there would prefer to look normal rather than broadcasting their intent to kill..

I think the problem stems from the fact that ingame, as in real ife, there isnt any way to gauge trustworthiness. Players should be able to customise their look anyway they want.

It is a tough one and perhaps your idea is in the right direction - body language could give you tips on whether a player is up to no good or not.

Anyway, welcome to the Forum.

I agree with this, if you Just observe player movement from a distance that will sometimes tell you if they intend to kill, like watching someone run to sniper hill with a DMR, or camp on top of the apartments in berezino or cherno, theres lots of ways other then skin or appearance that you can tell.

[logan23 118]

Hello everyone, you may call me Ralfie and this is my first post here on the forums :D

TLDR:

This thread is about a theoretical implementation of new humanity indicators in the coming standalone (SA) version of DayZ.

This is due to the fact that players will be able to freely customize their clothing in SA, thus making the bandit skin system obsolete.

My solution is therefore to create distinct player stances and animations based on their current humanity.

Obstacles in the implementation is more work in the form of skeletal animation, which again crates obstacles with clipping objects and so on.

Proof of concept, consider the following:

The Hostile Player

My theory is that a person accustomed to taking shots at people will change his stance over time to gain better balance; he wants to kill, and to make sure his victim dies he often shoots more than once. DAKKA DAKKA!

His way of moving might also seem more confrontative as aggressiveness has become his primary method of interacting with his environment; be that with stealth or head on confrontation, he is relentless in his pursuit of blood.

To a certain degree he might even become so fearless that his posture might seem cocky to others, holding his rifle over the shoulder, and possibly getting accustomed to shooting pistols with one hand.

The Peaceful Player

A person who refrains from killing innocents would normally be more considerate when taking shots, and his posture would therefore reflect this with a more calm and collected stance to gain the most steady shot possible.

When idle or on the move he displays a high degree of discipline (yeah trigger-discipline! :D), his posture emanates courage and always seems to stand at attention even if not conscious about it himself.

Weapons are held straight to make sure not to miss innocent bystanders.

This is all purely cosmetic and should not change gameplay!

Scale

Most important, this is not a set in stone dichotomy between good and bad, the former examples should be viewed as polar opposites on a large scale of player animations, which will prove more of a mental challenge to the player when trying to identify someone.

Here some extra frontal mug shots of survivors of varying degrees of hostility ^^

Immersion:

This takes me to another of my interests; roleplaying games.

I have long had an interest in online computer roleplaying games*, where emotes and chat filtering could be used to create the impression of a certain character.

Roleplaying for me is not just about killing monsters and getting loot - its more about immersing myself in a fictional person and play by his rules; may that be his various driving forces, morals (or lack thereof), mentality, religion etc. etc.

And trust me roleplayers make a game so much better (funnier at least :D), much more than the abundant min-maxing powergamers that try to isolate every variable.

Remember this game was never intended to give you hard numbers on your blood level, humanity, how many HP a steak gives or how high DPS your rifle is; meta-gaming ruins immersion.

And this leaves me at the beginning; the implementation of character expression.

I think it could bring so much more to the table than just a pointer to someones humanity rating.

Realism

It is hard to argue how this would make a game more realistic or not, I chose to use the term immersive.

I am a firm believer in that we humans always communicate our current internal state to the outside world via. various forms of display.

Ask yourself this, why has there been introduced a rapid and quite panicked breathing when in the vicinity of zombies in DayZ? Well because your character is supposed to be afraid in these highly Kafkaesque situations, and it would be natural to fear death slowly creeping up on you.

This is also the reason behind me wanting more body language in a game where hearing has become the primary modality of interaction.

In nonverbal communication sight is the predominant way of getting information of the subjects intent, and I believe that introducing these animations will increase social interaction besides looking at people through a scope.

I believe that these psychological aspects would synergize with the horror elements and make the game more menacing, horror for me has nothing to do with physical torment even tho I prefer lots of blood and guts. If you are a zombie aficionado you will understand :).

Obstacles

Well someone has to do it, and stuff takes time. I have no idea how much work it would take to make something like this but I imagine it is quite some work making new animations for models, I have tried it a bit sometime with md3 models I think LOL. Well that was the stoneage of 3d, perhaps there are more efficient ways of creating animations nowadays hrm? One can only dream :D

Some people seem to believe that humanity should be removed altogether, this I imagine is a (complicated) discussion outside of this thread.

Some argue that animations will make the game a team deathmatch game, even tho the bandit "team" keeps shooting each other.

I think good guys should stick together, and bandits should stick to being douchebags mean people.

Disclaimer

Please don't think that I am trying to pass judgement over what Dayz is and what it is not; only Rocket knows what DayZ is (I hope! :D) - I'm just sayin' that it could do good with a bit of "opaqueness" if thats a term :P.

This is my opinion, you are of course entitled to your own even if it may differ from mine, and I would like to hear any critique, this is after all a thought experiment and it has its flaws!

This is an idea I just came up with this evening, if someone else has already come up with something similar well kudos to you, we think alike! haha! (I searched a bit, nothing).

Oh and I stole all these pictures from some cheesy vector clipart website, so credits goes to them yeah...

~edit~ I also like to edit my posts and add more stuff so maybe I will keep on developing upon thought ~edit~

About me:

I am an avid fan of DayZ and have already gotten numerous unforgettable memories from this amazing (anti?) game.

What got me into this game is the dynamic gameplay that emerges from the interaction between players combined with an overly hostile environment.

Forgive me if I offend anyone with this comparison, but I feel like I met the anarchist brother to the overly capitalistic sibling known as EvE Online xD.

What made me stay in DayZ is the opportunity to take on various personas; I can be an altruistic samaritan helping others survive, or I can be a selfish highwayman to whom killing and stealing is second nature.

I enjoy roleplaying in online games primarely to fuck with people and have fun, I RPed a great deal in NWN2, SWG (pre CU for life! death to SOE!), LoTRO, Anarchy Online and Champions Online + a bit here and there :P

I like the idea.

You just need to make sure that the stances are close enough to each other so players need to be close to that other player to determine what stance.

It wouldn't be good if the stance can be seen or determined from a far distance without a scope-

[fluxley 2228]

Really like this idea, from what ive seen on the devblogs the dev team are still a little undecided as to how they are going to handle humanity, heres hoping they consider something like this.

[applejaxc 2500]

You're a beautiful person. I've read posts like this, but I've never been convinced (until now) that such a headache would be worth the Dev's time.

[Mos1ey 6301]

+1 Still an awesome idea.

[DontTrustPubs 17]

I like you suggestion of using different animations depending on if you are a bandit, hero or survivor because it wouldn't interfere with the clothing system in the stand alone. some other suggestions would be:

blood on clothing, identification of bandits and heroes through some form of tracking, dogs perhaps.